Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

[Keefe the Thief]

Originally Posted by Primal

A lot of posters usually claim that Elmister and the other Chosen are Ed's "power trip" DMPCs who exist as omnipotent railroading plot devices, or to prevent player abuse and to strenghten the DM's authority. That is not an accurate description (I recommend reading the 'Silverfall' which depicts all the Chosen in a different light) in my books, and tells me that the poster just doesn't "get" the "spirit" of the Realms.

The "if you don´t like it you don´t really understand the realms" defense. I´ve been waiting for that one.

Dude. I´ve read the Elminster novels. And the FR books. And the introductory adventure where Elminster "accidentialy" heals injured PCs by using a wand of cure light wounds as a throwing stick. I can criticize. The problem with your argument is: to criticize canon-lawery elements of FR you have to be a canon lawyer yourself, but if you were a real canon lawyer, you would get it and not criticize FR and / or ED in that way, so read more FR.

Sorry, but that just doesnt work. And it won´t win people over to your side.

[Primal]

Originally Posted by Keefe the Thief

The "if you don´t like it you don´t really understand the realms" defense. I´ve been waiting for that one.

Dude. I´ve read the Elminster novels. And the FR books. And the introductory adventure where Elminster "accidentialy" heals injured PCs by using a wand of cure light wounds as a throwing stick. I can criticize. The problem with your argument is: to criticize canon-lawery elements of FR you have to be a canon lawyer yourself, but if you were a real canon lawyer, you would get it and not criticize FR and / or ED in that way, so read more FR.

Sorry, but that just doesnt work. And it won´t win people over to your side.

No, I haven't said you can't criticize the Realms or that negative comments imply you are not "getting" the Realms; I *did*, however, note that when someone is talking about specific modules/characters/regions, I expect that he's done the research... *especially* if he's making statements along the lines of "Designer/Author X sucks and NPC Y is just his DMPC" or that "Module Z sucks big time". For example, the adventure you're referring to is not (to my knowledge) written by Ed, and therefore that (horrible) scene with Elminster and the dog should not be attributed to his portrayal of El. It's canon, but then again, so is 'Once around the Realms' (which manages to misspell just about every other name in it, including Ao).

I consider myself to be a "canon lawyer", but I'm not above criticizing FR or changing the canon for my own campaigns (or accepting deviations from canon in other DMs' campaigns -- as long as there's more to it than just "Silverymoon exploded a year ago and now there's a new city called Greyhawk built on top of it"). I just hate it when people make statements on basis of prejudice and/or less than trustworthy internet sources.

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Primal

For example, the adventure you're referring to is not (to my knowledge) written by Ed, and therefore that (horrible) scene with Elminster and the dog should not be attributed to his portrayal of El.

Ok just so everyone is clear...I dislike the characters...not the writers..any of them..

Elminster has become (along with midnight/mystra and the chosen in general) a focal point for those of us that see a problem. Ironicly enough They are not the only problem...

the fact that if you read all the novels and adventures and have an awsome memory (Like my roommate who can praticly quote exact words from the times of trouble) you know a metric but load about the realms...If you are asumeing even 1/10th of it is cannon in any given game you could easyly be in for the biggest rudeest awakneing...becuse Your DM might now less then 1% of all the realms lore...

It's canon, but then again, so is 'Once around the Realms' (which manages to misspell just about every other name in it, including Ao).

good canon, bad canon...I just want less canon. I want one shared world that allows me to start at A and make my own stuff up without stepping on other peoples "known canon"...oh wait that would be 4e realms and LFR...

I consider myself to be a "canon lawyer", but I'm not above criticizing FR or changing the canon for my own campaigns (or accepting deviations from canon in other DMs' campaigns -- as long as there's more to it than just "Silverymoon exploded a year ago and now there's a new city called Greyhawk built on top of it"). I just hate it when people make statements on basis of prejudice and/or less than trustworthy internet sources.

O lets ttake silverymoon. If I told you the Lord Mayor of silvery moon is a half elf named Rain, and he and his lover the shifter Fiona have ruled there for 6 months after displaceing X (X equaling who ever the canon says is there I realy don't know, but I know I herd it is a drizt setting city so I asume someone here does) what would you think?

Also what if there was a PC drow who walked into town, and I decided that I don't want to deal with prejudice right now, and I think drizt has been here (as above I do belive that is how I herd this I may be wrong) so they don't think twice of it.

what would you say to me as a DM you were playing under...and what would you think (Lets be honnest even if you hated it you might not say anything so the second part is to make sure we are all ont he sam epage...)

[Primal]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

Ok just so everyone is clear...I dislike the characters...not the writers..any of them..

Elminster has become (along with midnight/mystra and the chosen in general) a focal point for those of us that see a problem. Ironicly enough They are not the only problem...

the fact that if you read all the novels and adventures and have an awsome memory (Like my roommate who can praticly quote exact words from the times of trouble) you know a metric but load about the realms...If you are asumeing even 1/10th of it is cannon in any given game you could easyly be in for the biggest rudeest awakneing...becuse Your DM might now less then 1% of all the realms lore...

If you dislike most/all major FR NPCs (or deities), I don't know why you would want to run your games in the Realms. And I've yet to meet a FR DM who did not do any "homework", or used only marginally Realmslore in his FR campaigns.

good canon, bad canon...I just want less canon. I want one shared world that allows me to start at A and make my own stuff up without stepping on other peoples "known canon"...oh wait that would be 4e realms and LFR...

Honestly, I might be wrong, but I think a shared setting might not be ideal for you, if you don't like researching the setting or using any canon lore. It's far more easier to homebrew, if you're practically going to use your own stuff anyway -- just "steal" ideas here and there and write the rest yourself.

O lets ttake silverymoon. If I told you the Lord Mayor of silvery moon is a half elf named Rain, and he and his lover the shifter Fiona have ruled there for 6 months after displaceing X (X equaling who ever the canon says is there I realy don't know, but I know I herd it is a drizt setting city so I asume someone here does) what would you think?

Also what if there was a PC drow who walked into town, and I decided that I don't want to deal with prejudice right now, and I think drizt has been here (as above I do belive that is how I herd this I may be wrong) so they don't think twice of it.

what would you say to me as a DM you were playing under...and what would you think (Lets be honnest even if you hated it you might not say anything so the second part is to make sure we are all ont he sam epage...)

Well, I just replaced a canon ruler of a town in my own current FR campaign because I thought he was too "bland" (plus I didn't like his name). I just rewrote the poor guy's history a bit (changed his alignment, for a start) and then had him assassinated in the campaign backstory. Although my players are very "FR-savvy", they thought it was a logical switch.

And that brings me to your Silverymoon example... first of all, I *would* have a problem with names like 'Rain' (too "bland" in my books, and sounds like a nickname) and 'Fiona' (it's a RW name), just as any Eberron fan likely would if you used them as the 'King and Queen of the City of Sharn'. Whether it's 'George' or 'Fritz' or 'Ivana' or 'Bruce' or 'Fiona', I don't see these names belonging in a typical D&D setting, even less in FR than some others (Mystara is a different matter altogether). Secondly, if you used a logical, coherent reason why Lady Alustriel would be replaced by another ruler, I would accept it (a failed assassination attempt which yet manages to take her out of the picture, the creeping insanity caused by powers of the Chosen finally starting show, an important quest she had to undertake for Mystra, etcetera).

But if you expect to take a published setting and run your campaigns without reading *any* material, I suggest homebrewing, because that way nobody can comment about lack of adherence to setting's canon. And, frankly, as a player I feel that a DM who doesn't want to do any research/worldbuilding should not expect me to seriously immerse myself in my characters or to overall invest my time in his campaigns.

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Primal

If you dislike most/all major FR NPCs (or deities), I don't know why you would want to run your games in the Realms. And I've yet to meet a FR DM who did not do any "homework", or used only marginally Realmslore in his FR campaigns.

Honestly, I might be wrong, but I think a shared setting might not be ideal for you, if you don't like researching the setting or using any canon lore. It's far more easier to homebrew, if you're practically going to use your own stuff anyway -- just "steal" ideas here and there and write the rest yourself.

I don't see why, though. I think there's a lot of appeal to minimalist settings, and likewise a lot of appeal to working with a setting only using minimal information.

For example, it's perfectly possible to use only the original grey box to run a Forgotten Realms game. (And, in fact, I would love to do so.) Ditto, Greyhawk. I've done similar with the Diamond Throne setting, which is one of my favorites despite the fact that each region has maybe a paragraph or two of description, and vast tracts are left completely undetailed.

-O

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Primal

If you dislike most/all major FR NPCs (or deities), I don't know why you would want to run your games in the Realms.

becuse I liked what I read...in my case 1 2e box set, the base 3e book,some suplments and some parts of a novel...

And I've yet to meet a FR DM who did not do any "homework", or used only marginally Realmslore in his FR campaigns.

well hello you meet me now...I read the books I owned...

Honestly, I might be wrong, but I think a shared setting might not be ideal for you, if you don't like researching the setting or using any canon lore.

funny, no one tells me that in any other setting...

It's far more easier to homebrew, if you're practically going to use your own stuff anyway -- just "steal" ideas here and there and write the rest yourself.

In 2e I ran realms, darksun, birthright, ravenloft...and red steel Only one of those worlds was the base book not enough...guess witch...

And that brings me to your Silverymoon example... first of all, I *would* have a problem with names like 'Rain' (too "bland" in my books, and sounds like a nickname) and 'Fiona' (it's a RW name),

actualy I took the names from two PCs who we ran in ebberon (and rain was the nick name, but the only name he used)

Secondly, if you used a logical, coherent reason why Lady Alustriel would be replaced by another ruler,

Ok first I think I was wrong about silvery moon, but I know nothing of this lady alustriel...

I would accept it (a failed assassination attempt which yet manages to take her out of the picture, the creeping insanity caused by powers of the Chosen finally starting show, an important quest she had to undertake for Mystra, etcetera).

Wow I guess I was REALLY wrong she is a chosen..really how many rulers are chosen? Symbol, black staff, this chick...

But if you expect to take a published setting and run your campaigns without reading *any* material,

Once again I read the campaing guide for 3e, some of the pocket novels, and part of spell Fire...I also have skimmed a few other suplments...how much "Research" must I do to be able to run this game?????

I suggest homebrewing, because that way nobody can comment about lack of adherence to setting's canon. And, frankly, as a player I feel that a DM who doesn't want to do any research/worldbuilding should not expect me to seriously immerse myself in my characters or to overall invest my time in his campaigns.

wow the eltiest is strong in this arguement...I do spend time world building, notice you don't care WHY I changed it though...so let me now tell you some more...

The eberon game these two character were from was an evil game, and there main goal was to take over a big city, then settle down there and rule. I figured I could use them as a quick plot thread to introduce a plot about 'retuerning justice tot he city'...how ever like many canon lawyers you don't care becuse I made a change to your setting...

Originally Posted by Obryn

I don't see why, though. I think there's a lot of appeal to minimalist settings, and likewise a lot of appeal to working with a setting only using minimal information.

can someone please tell me why the main book of the setting is not enough???

For example, it's perfectly possible to use only the original grey box to run a Forgotten Realms game. (And, in fact, I would love to do so.) Ditto, Greyhawk. I've done similar with the Diamond Throne setting, which is one of my favorites despite the fact that each region has maybe a paragraph or two of description, and vast tracts are left completely undetailed.

the problem is if you have a person who is heavyly invested in the setting like Primal seams to be, they don't like change...




I did finaly give up on published setting in 3.5...infact I said when 4e was announced I would not only not buy said setting, but nothing from them would be used. Then I herd about the 100 jump/fix to ferun, and the swordmage. I love BOTH setting relased so far, and wonder why the realms was allowed to become so boged down to beging with...

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Primal

Secondly, if you used a logical, coherent reason why Lady Alustriel would be replaced by another ruler, I would accept it (a failed assassination attempt which yet manages to take her out of the picture,

I want to touch on this again...before I Knew she was a chosen (heck before I new it was a she) I assumed these two could take out the ruler easily...at 14th level she is a druid 14, he is a rogue X, Shadow dancer Y, Assasin Z (I would need to take some time to reporduce that character...and there way of being evil assasins was for him to sneak in, her to come in as a bird, wait for the person to be alone, she codzilla the person for 3 rounds, and if (Normaly a big if) the enemy was still up they got hit by his death attack....

now as in any other setting I assumes that would sucseed as an assasination attempt...but you assume any assassination would fail...why???


Edit: Ok, so I stole my roomates FR CG 3.5 to look up Lady Alustriel...and she is a CR28 chosen wizard/sorcer so if anything I just proved my point...by running a game with only the book I looked up the city and it said nothing about her being chosen or uber epic...it was only when my roommate told me to look her up int he index I found the stats (about 100 pages after the city)...

SO anyone here not see a problem? anyone?

[SKyOdin]

Originally Posted by Primal

If you dislike most/all major FR NPCs (or deities), I don't know why you would want to run your games in the Realms. And I've yet to meet a FR DM who did not do any "homework", or used only marginally Realmslore in his FR campaigns.

Honestly, I might be wrong, but I think a shared setting might not be ideal for you, if you don't like researching the setting or using any canon lore. It's far more easier to homebrew, if you're practically going to use your own stuff anyway -- just "steal" ideas here and there and write the rest yourself.

...

But if you expect to take a published setting and run your campaigns without reading *any* material, I suggest homebrewing, because that way nobody can comment about lack of adherence to setting's canon. And, frankly, as a player I feel that a DM who doesn't want to do any research/worldbuilding should not expect me to seriously immerse myself in my characters or to overall invest my time in his campaigns.

I felt like replying to the idea that someone shouldn't be running an established setting if they are going to change details of the setting. I will start by pointing out that I am not a Forgotten Realms fan, nor have I ever played in or run a FR campaign. However, I am a big fan of Eberron, and have followed it since its original release.

I for one think that Eberron has more setting detail than I would care to research or care about if I was DMing a campaign in it, and that is even ignoring all of the novels. I haven't even purchased Secrets of Sarlona, the Xen'drick books, or Dragons of Eberron. Yet, I would feel perfectly comfortable DMing an Eberron campaign, and I would even claim that my campaign world was Eberron, and not some pseudo-Eberron. That is because a campaign setting like Eberron is much more defined by its themes than by any specific setting detail.

A campaign setting is built around a relatively limited number of central aspects and over-arching themes: its mood and tone, major countries, religions, cosmology, central conflicts, villains, and campaign level plot hooks. As such, smaller details can easily be changed without impacting the overall feel of the campaign setting. For example, I could get away with changing the name of the leader of House Deneith without affecting the rest of the setting pretty easily. House Deneith itself would continue to have its same influence on the rest of the setting. That is why I find latter splatbooks and novels to be unnecessary; they add more detail to the setting without really changing any of the central themes of the setting. While knowing that Khalashtar don't marry and that Khalashtar children join the clan of the parent they share a gender with is interesting and can be useful, it simply isn't important compared to the much more pertinent detail that the Khalashtar are fighting a generations-old conflict against the Quori.

[jdrakeh]

Originally Posted by Obryn

For example, it's perfectly possible to use only the original grey box to run a Forgotten Realms game.

Yes, yes, it is. For me, FR is that grey boxed set (and one or two of the FR X supplements). Anything past that is completely optional. Anything that occurs past that initial point on the FR timeline hasn't happened yet (and may never happen). The dozens of novels, hundreds of supplements, modules, and so forth all portray possible futures or rumoured pasts, not guaranteed certainties or established fact. They absolutely aren't canon in any FR game I ever have run (or will run).

[S'mon]

Originally Posted by jdrakeh

Yes, yes, it is. For me, FR is that grey boxed set (and one or two of the FR X supplements). Anything past that is completely optional. Anything that occurs past that initial point on the FR timeline hasn't happened yet (and may never happen). The dozens of novels, hundreds of supplements, modules, and so forth all portray possible futures or rumoured pasts, not guaranteed certainties or established fact. They absolutely aren't canon in any FR game I ever have run (or will run).

This would certainly be my preferred approach to running FR, although fear of Primal-esque canon lawyers might deter me from actually running the game.
I find this "You shouldn't be running FR if you aren't going to stick to canon and read tons of novels & supplements" thing odd. I'm interested in FR because I think the setting has lots of value, going by my 1e grey box, as well as elements I dislike. There are plenty of settings without anything of value or interest for me - eg Kalamar. You might think people would be glad that others are interested in their favourite setting, rather than saying that only canon lawyers should be using it.

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Primal

Honestly, I might be wrong, but I think a shared setting might not be ideal for you, if you don't like researching the setting or using any canon lore. It's far more easier to homebrew, if you're practically going to use your own stuff anyway -- just "steal" ideas here and there and write the rest yourself.

That's the problem with FR though. I've run Scarred Lands with just the SL campaign book. Heck, for a while, I ran a Scarred Lands campaign with just the Mithril City of the Golem book. And it was fine.

I realized that FR was crushing under the weight of its own setting porn when they actually had FOUR articles written by Ed Greenwood on Rural architecture. When they have the details down to the shape of windows in the Realms, it's time to do some rebooting.

[Hereticus]

FWIW, when I ran a Forgotten Realms game (started a 7th level), I clearly stated up front that the only canon was the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book. Nothing else would be included (not by deliberate exclusion, but by DM ignorance of said canon). I also told the players that if they wanted a particular history or situation, that I would include it if possible. Since Drizzt was not in the FRCS, neither he nor his friends or enemies were part of the campaign setup. However later on some of the related characters were introduced by specific player request.

It worked, I did not get any "you got it wrong" comments.

[JoeGKushner]

Think of it as a point of conversation. In your Forgotten Realms, she's a 14th level druid.

In some official supplement, that's different.

Your version is what counts.

Every FR setting book reminds you to make it your own.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

I want to touch on this again...before I Knew she was a chosen (heck before I new it was a she) I assumed these two could take out the ruler easily...at 14th level she is a druid 14, he is a rogue X, Shadow dancer Y, Assasin Z (I would need to take some time to reporduce that character...and there way of being evil assasins was for him to sneak in, her to come in as a bird, wait for the person to be alone, she codzilla the person for 3 rounds, and if (Normaly a big if) the enemy was still up they got hit by his death attack....

now as in any other setting I assumes that would sucseed as an assasination attempt...but you assume any assassination would fail...why???


Edit: Ok, so I stole my roomates FR CG 3.5 to look up Lady Alustriel...and she is a CR28 chosen wizard/sorcer so if anything I just proved my point...by running a game with only the book I looked up the city and it said nothing about her being chosen or uber epic...it was only when my roommate told me to look her up int he index I found the stats (about 100 pages after the city)...

SO anyone here not see a problem? anyone?

[Brother Richard]

Alright so you are saying that there is too much canon and bloat because of this instance because you did not realize that Alustriel was a Chosen. Well, I mean, not knowing the Chosen is like the equivalent of not knowing the name of the Goddess of Magic. Also, even if you don't know it, a campaign setting does not have to assume you are going around assassinating important rulers. Thats just a bad idea in general (especially if you don't know anything about FR)

Edit: I am trying to think of an Eberron example. its sort of like killing the leader of the inspired or whatever they are called and then saying: "Well I didn't know that they were possessed by powerful Quori". Some things jsut need to be understood, especially if you are trying to meddle in a setting. Once again i want to mention that killing important characters is almost never a good idea, and also even if Alustriel was like a level 14 druid, the assassin would be killed. FR is a high powered world the magic and wards around Alustriel's chamber would be ridiculuous and her elite guards would probably all be level 14+

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Brother Richard

Alright so you are saying that there is too much canon and bloat because of this instance because you did not realize that Alustriel was a Chosen. Well, I mean, not knowing the Chosen is like the equivalent of not knowing the name of the Goddess of Magic.

since I know where to find the list of Gods...where is the list of chosen? Heck howmany gods have chosen???

Also, even if you don't know it, a campaign setting does not have to assume you are going around assassinating important rulers.

I am not going around doingit...someone named a city I sued it as an example expecting something important would be there...when I looked up said city in FRCG it didn't even hint how powerful this person was...

Thats just a bad idea in general (especially if you don't know anything about FR)

so again, howmuch is enough knowladge...how many books do I need to read???

Edit: I am trying to think of an Eberron example. its sort of like killing the leader of the inspired or whatever they are called and then saying: "Well I didn't know that they were possessed by powerful Quori".

wow...since all inspired have quori, you suggest all city rulers are chosen???

really???

Some things jsut need to be understood, especially if you are trying to meddle in a setting.

meddle?? I want to put my own NPC in...

Once again i want to mention that killing important characters is almost never a good idea, and also even if Alustriel was like a level 14 druid, the assassin would be killed.

first the assasin was a 14th level druid...I assumed 2 14th level PC built character one being Codzilla would be enough to take out most rulers of cities...silly me,

FR is a high powered world the magic and wards around Alustriel's chamber would be ridiculuous and her elite guards would probably all be level 14+

where do I find this...it is not in the CG, or anything else I read...heck if I did fall on her stats (about 100 paages after the city is described) why would I think a CR28 chosen/caster need guards at all...





I proved my statement becuse when I made what the campiagn guide made sound like a small change (1 ruler in1 city, kinda like saying in my modern game the govoner of arazona is X) it caoused a fight...canon lawyers just showed why they HAD to change the realms...

I bet there are more DMs/Players that are my level of involvemnt in the realms...so WotC loses more and more money the more they cater to countiniy

[JeffB]

Knowning Canon, and being a slave to it, are two very different things. Didn't anyone else just ignore all the big name FR NPCs and novel plots?

I basically just dug into the boxed set(s) and books (Like The Savage Frontier) and used all the baddies like The Zhentarim, Church of Cyric, Xvim/Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, etc and ignored the specific NPCs (The Fzouls & Manshoons for example) and did the same for the Good aligned orgs- Elminster, the Chosen, Drizzt, or Khelben never had any air time at all, yet the PCs could find themselves working with/for The Harpers, or the Church of (insert "good" deity" here) through low level "no name" NPCs and adventures of my own creation. The charcaters were thrust into the world like anyone- having a POV that is based on where they grew up, and what they have heard about far away places and people could be VERY different in actuality. Harpers were not know by every farmer and villager in the relams, though they may know of a good natured (pick a class) who has proven helpful to the town in times of need. Those types of groups are TOTALLY behind the scenes. while The Zhents may be well known, but the PCs are not likely to know anything about them other than the obvious an ordinary citizen under thier oppression would know (they control all trade, many are allied with a foul church and you'll be dead if you cross them or pry). While the Cleric of Sune may have some idea of what the other major faiths are about, they do not know the all the details of the Avatar Trilogy and Lord Ao, and the Chosen, and all the other "Godswar" stuff.

Maybe I'm weird, but to me FR is an absolutely fantastic setting if you just keep the idea of "The PCs are the heroes of the world" at the forefront of everything you do as the DM (this proves correct for ANY game or game world). As a player, I'd have strangled a DM if they merely were following along with the TSR Novel Division and weaving my "pawn" into the cracks of the setting. Lame.

[thecasualoblivion]

FR fans and the 2E and 3E eras catering to these fans to the expense of all else has given FR a bit of a bad name.

I've seen FR fans time and again say that the accusations against FR aren't objectively true. The problem with this is that objective truth has nothing to do with things. The problem with FR isn't the truth, but the perception. People see FR as the home of Uber-NPCs, Mary-Sues, overzealous fanboys and being a setting you have to master a ridiculous amount of cannon to play in.

The perception became so strong that the truth was irrelevant.

This isn't a court of law, but the court of public opinion. In the court of public opinion, the order of the day is guilty until proven innocent. FR needs to prove to the doubters that its worth going there.

[Brother Richard]

In FR, many npcs are extremely high level. An important thing to understand is that almost all rulers have power proportional to the politcal power of their nation/city/whatever. If this is not the case, they have someone close to them who is extremely power (like Vanderghast in Cormyr) Otherwise the extremely powerful evil people (just as powerful as those who are good) would kill that ruler instantly. Did you actually read a about Silverymoon? You didn't know that Alustriel is a Chosen, which would be in a book about it, and also, Silverymoon, while one city is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT POLITICALLY. it is the center of the North. Without it, there would be huge conceuquences. I don't feel it is the settings fault if you didn't even read a full source about the main city you are using. i feel like you would get a similar reaction in almost any campaign setting not homebrewed. if you want to kill rulers left and right, make a new setting, or thoroughly research what would happen in a shared setting, and if you do, you can fine interesting and far reaching conceuquences for the pcs to try to diminish.

I am sorry if this seems antagonistic. Maybe you feel that you shouldn't need to actually read much to be able to make big personalzied changes in a shared setting, but i strongly disagree in general, not just with FR.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

Once again I read the campaing guide for 3e, some of the pocket novels, and part of spell Fire...I also have skimmed a few other suplments...how much "Research" must I do to be able to run this game?????

Depends on your players. This is true of many campaigns, even ones not involving the Forgotten Realms. I know one guy, you put an orange carrot before its time in a historical game, made an issue over it.

can someone please tell me why the main book of the setting is not enough???

Because the amount of content in any one book is limited, and it can't cover everything. Yet some people want more content. If you don't, more power to you, but others may feel otherwise.

Thinking of the examples you gave, Dark Sun, I'd appreciate having maps of some of the other cities to use, or the details found in the Ivory Triangle boxed set. I think they add quite a bit to it. Same with the non-Anuirean areas of Birthright. Same may apply to Ravenloft or Red Steel, don't know.

[thecasualoblivion]

To add to my previous post, FR has had an image problem. If the WotC and/or the FR community want the setting to grow they need to deal with that image problem. Saying that people have the wrong ideas or sticking your head in the sand do nothing to fix that.