Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Brother Richard

Did you actually read a about Silverymoon?

The FRCG has about 1/4 of a page on the city, maybe 4 or 5 paragraphs...

You didn't know that Alustriel is a Chosen, which would be in a book about it, and also, Silverymoon, while one city is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT POLITICALLY. it is the center of the North.

It said the second part, not the first. Inorder to find the first I had to have a player tell me to look her up int he index, then I found her stats about 100 pages later...

Without it, there would be huge conceuquences.

woa...I didn't destroy the city, I just made it a little darker and more black on the black/grey/white scale...

I don't feel it is the settings fault if you didn't even read a full source about the main city you are using.

I READ THE MAIN BOOK... how many books do I need to read? I guess every singe source, or there is someplace I don't know...oh wait proveing my points...

i feel like you would get a similar reaction in almost any campaign setting not homebrewed.

then why is it that out of everyone that has these problems, 7 out of 10 are in the realms??? Again, I have run many settings fromt he main book. Why do I need MORE for this one...

if you want to kill rulers left and right, make a new setting, or thoroughly research what would happen in a shared setting, and if you do, you can fine interesting and far reaching conceuquences for the pcs to try to diminish.

I have the consquances...I am the DM I make them up. In this case it would be a small problem in the north, but a large problem in this one city. A problem for the PCs to solve...maybe overthrow these two new guys and replace them with another good aligned ruler. However I can see already no one wants to play in the setting...

I am sorry if this seems antagonistic. Maybe you feel that you shouldn't need to actually read much to be able to make big personalzied changes in a shared setting, but i strongly disagree in general, not just with FR.

It wasn't a change...it was i know nothing past the little bit in the main book. SO I created a plot. IN any other setting that would be fine...not in FR. Heaven forbid anything was changed...

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion

To add to my previous post, FR has had an image problem. If the WotC and/or the FR community want the setting to grow they need to deal with that image problem. Saying that people have the wrong ideas or sticking your head in the sand do nothing to fix that.

Well, here's the thing, based on my experience, there's nothing WoTC can do about people with the kind of problem you're talking about. It's just not worth trying to change people's opinions. You may consider it to be sticking a head in the sand, but to me, it's not banging your head into a wall.

So I think WotC should do what's best for the existing customers, and not worry about pleasing the people who are already angry. If they do the right thing, they'll catch any of the people who have an open-mind anyway, so it'll all be good.

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

Depends on your players. This is true of many campaigns, even ones not involving the Forgotten Realms. I know one guy, you put an orange carrot before its time in a historical game, made an issue over it.

yea I know a guy (he and I hang at the same store but rearly if ever play in the same games) who is like that...

Because the amount of content in any one book is limited, and it can't cover everything. Yet some people want more content. If you don't, more power to you, but others may feel otherwise.

but more and more people (even here look at eh last thread I responded to) are telling me I HAVE to know more, and read more.

Thinking of the examples you gave, Dark Sun, I'd appreciate having maps of some of the other cities to use, or the details found in the Ivory Triangle boxed set. I think they add quite a bit to it.

But howmany PCs do you know that would be mad if I made my own map if I didn't own those sets...

Same with the non-Anuirean areas of Birthright. Same may apply to Ravenloft or Red Steel, don't know.

First red steel is just a small section of another setting, and as for raven loft, as long as you stay to the core it should be fine with the main book

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

So I think WotC should do what's best for the existing customers, and not worry about pleasing the people who are already angry. If they do the right thing, they'll catch any of the people who have an open-mind anyway, so it'll all be good.

see I disagree, by jumping the setting 100 years you get to have your cake and it it too...

see all that canon and history is there, but it doesn't effect the game. Noone cares what I say about silverymoon now...

[thecasualoblivion]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

Well, here's the thing, based on my experience, there's nothing WoTC can do about people with the kind of problem you're talking about. It's just not worth trying to change people's opinions. You may consider it to be sticking a head in the sand, but to me, it's not banging your head into a wall.

So I think WotC should do what's best for the existing customers, and not worry about pleasing the people who are already angry. If they do the right thing, they'll catch any of the people who have an open-mind anyway, so it'll all be good.

Catering to hardcore fans alone is a recipe for eventual extinction.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

but more and more people (even here look at eh last thread I responded to) are telling me I HAVE to know more, and read more.

For what you've suggested, it might have helped a bit, yes, at least with some of the players, and with adapting your desired changes to the existing setting. I honestly don't know, I've not read the 3e FRCS let alone the 4e one. I don't even have the 2e books, and my 1e books are packed, so I can't check their content to see if they mention Alustriel, though I'm pretty sure that one of the add-on books covering the area did.

But howmany PCs do you know that would be mad if I made my own map if I didn't own those sets...

PCs? I dunno, but I do know some players who might be familiar with the parts of the setting, and make a character concept based on them, and then if you turned around and said that it wouldn't work, they might be a bit upset. Including me. The details would indeed matter, some changes may not bother me, such as not having all of Nibenay's templars act as his wives.

First red steel is just a small section of another setting,

And if you changed the rest of Mystara without any knowledge of it, it might be a problem. I wouldn't object if you put Red Steel into your own campaign world though.

and as for raven loft, as long as you stay to the core it should be fine with the main book

Depends on the players, I would never assume you wouldn't have some problem.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

see I disagree, by jumping the setting 100 years you get to have your cake and it it too...

see all that canon and history is there, but it doesn't effect the game. Noone cares what I say about silverymoon now...

That might have been the plan.

Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion

Catering to hardcore fans alone is a recipe for eventual extinction.

Excuse me, I guess I wasn't clear that I wasn't suggesting catering to the extreme, I was simply saying that trying to please the angry isn't that feasible an endeavor in my opinion. If they're opponents already, they're either going to change their minds if you make a good product, or they won't no matter what you do, but making any particular effort to please them is as viable as banging your head against the wall. All you'll get is a headache.

They should worry about making a good product, and not waste time worrying about the harping critics who I've found won't be pleased whatever you do.

In other words, ignore that extreme. Stick to the middle, possibly with a nod to the ones in your favor. You'll still pick up anybody with an open mind, and won't lose your core with appeals to a fringe.

[thecasualoblivion]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

Excuse me, I guess I wasn't clear that I wasn't suggesting catering to the extreme, I was simply saying that trying to please the angry isn't that feasible an endeavor in my opinion. If they're opponents already, they're either going to change their minds if you make a good product, or they won't no matter what you do, but making any particular effort to please them is as viable as banging your head against the wall. All you'll get is a headache.

They should worry about making a good product, and not waste time worrying about the harping critics who I've found won't be pleased whatever you do.

In other words, ignore that extreme. Stick to the middle, possibly with a nod to the ones in your favor. You'll still pick up anybody with an open mind, and won't lose your core with appeals to a fringe.

FR prior to 4E tended to cater to the extreme, namely the hardcore FR fan. It garned a bad rep that led reasonable people to come to the conclusion: "I'd love to play FR, if it wasn't for all the crap". Its sin wasn't creating undeserved hate. Its sin was giving the impression of there being enough baggage to make it not worth the hassle of buying into the setting.

[S'mon]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Knowning Canon, and being a slave to it, are two very different things. Didn't anyone else just ignore all the big name FR NPCs and novel plots?

I basically just dug into the boxed set(s) and books (Like The Savage Frontier) and used all the baddies like The Zhentarim, Church of Cyric, Xvim/Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, etc and ignored the specific NPCs (The Fzouls & Manshoons for example) and did the same for the Good aligned orgs- Elminster, the Chosen, Drizzt, or Khelben never had any air time at all, yet the PCs could find themselves working with/for The Harpers, or the Church of (insert "good" deity" here) through low level "no name" NPCs and adventures of my own creation. The charcaters were thrust into the world like anyone- having a POV that is based on where they grew up, and what they have heard about far away places and people could be VERY different in actuality. Harpers were not know by every farmer and villager in the relams, though they may know of a good natured (pick a class) who has proven helpful to the town in times of need. Those types of groups are TOTALLY behind the scenes. while The Zhents may be well known, but the PCs are not likely to know anything about them other than the obvious an ordinary citizen under thier oppression would know (they control all trade, many are allied with a foul church and you'll be dead if you cross them or pry). While the Cleric of Sune may have some idea of what the other major faiths are about, they do not know the all the details of the Avatar Trilogy and Lord Ao, and the Chosen, and all the other "Godswar" stuff.

Maybe I'm weird, but to me FR is an absolutely fantastic setting if you just keep the idea of "The PCs are the heroes of the world" at the forefront of everything you do as the DM (this proves correct for ANY game or game world). As a player, I'd have strangled a DM if they merely were following along with the TSR Novel Division and weaving my "pawn" into the cracks of the setting. Lame.

Sounds good - again, these are the kind of ideas that get me wanting to run an FR game.

[Primal]

Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion

FR prior to 4E tended to cater to the extreme, namely the hardcore FR fan. It garned a bad rep that led reasonable people to come to the conclusion: "I'd love to play FR, if it wasn't for all the crap". Its sin wasn't creating undeserved hate. Its sin was giving the impression of there being enough baggage to make it not worth the hassle of buying into the setting.

Yet that "glut" of lore in novels, articles and accessories is what made FR so popular... therefore I don't think it catered just to the needs of a small gathering of diehard fans. Could it have been ever *more* successful by adopting a "lore light" approach? We can't say, just as we can't say if all those people who claim they would have loved to play in "less crappy" (to use the same expression as above) FR actually *would* have bought the products. I have a very strong gut feeling (based on anecdotal evidence and top seller lists), though, that a more "lore light" [4E] FR didn't go over as well as WoTC anticipated, and this may even have lead to the "3 books per setting" policy (IIRC before the books were out, Rich Baker mentioned other upcoming FR books that were supposed to be published after Spellgard). This is all my personal speculation, though.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion

FR prior to 4E tended to cater to the extreme, namely the hardcore FR fan.

How so? What examples would you give of this tendency? A conclusion is one thing, but backing it up may help me understand your position better. Especially since for reasons unrelated to any setting, I was out of the loop for about a decade.

[Primal]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

I want to touch on this again...before I Knew she was a chosen (heck before I new it was a she) I assumed these two could take out the ruler easily...at 14th level she is a druid 14, he is a rogue X, Shadow dancer Y, Assasin Z (I would need to take some time to reporduce that character...and there way of being evil assasins was for him to sneak in, her to come in as a bird, wait for the person to be alone, she codzilla the person for 3 rounds, and if (Normaly a big if) the enemy was still up they got hit by his death attack....

now as in any other setting I assumes that would sucseed as an assasination attempt...but you assume any assassination would fail...why???


Edit: Ok, so I stole my roomates FR CG 3.5 to look up Lady Alustriel...and she is a CR28 chosen wizard/sorcer so if anything I just proved my point...by running a game with only the book I looked up the city and it said nothing about her being chosen or uber epic...it was only when my roommate told me to look her up int he index I found the stats (about 100 pages after the city)...

SO anyone here not see a problem? anyone?

How do PCs take out powerful villains? With a solid strategy, and abilities/spells/allies/items that work on synergy, i.e. everything works like a well-oiled machine. If you want to see how the Mighty Chosen may be laid low, I recommend reading 'Silverfall'; it deals (among other themes) with a Realmswide conspiracy that also involves some low-level, crafty merchants among the "top tier" (plus a number of memorable scenes and er, how to say it... quite eccentric villains). One of those merchants is a particularly nasty as a villain; not because he's a high-level character, but because he's downright *nasty*, unscrupulous and has money to spend. And that's an important point, too -- those two 14th level NPCs would probably have enough resources that with a cunning plan and patience to spring their ambush on just the right moment they might succeed... just as a couple of 14th level villains might, with luck and the right resources, catch a 28th level PC by surprise.

[underthumb]

I think what needed to happen was a great encyclopedia of the Realms, released in both hardbound and electronic editions. Unifying much of the lore would be a great help to GMs and having a single source would be amazing. As it is, if one wants to run a cannon-heavy game, one has to use the Forgotten Realms Candlekeep Index quite a bit to find all the references to a particular person or place. There are a great many details that reside within 1st and 2nd edition FR books. Prior to WotC removing their old PDFs, it was a lot easier to suggest purchasing these books for cheap and checking them when need be.

As for myself, I'm a Forgotten Realms GM and I believe strongly in using as much cannon as I can manage. I tend to agree with those that prefer to either go all-in with a pre-existing setting or you go all-in with their own setting. I believe that my players would like their PCs to reside in the Forgotten Realms as they understand it from source books and popular fiction, but your players may differ. They may not mind either way, and ultimately this is about the implied contract between a GM and his players, rather than the "correct" way to run an FR game.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by underthumb

As for myself, I'm a Forgotten Realms GM and I believe strongly in using as much cannon as I can manage.

Personally, I just don't like having that stuff. Gond's gift was refused!

[MercuryCrash]

I have come across a couple of the cannon lawyers mentioned and really basically made a rumors table in my mind. Kind of the take it with a grain of salt saying. During 3.0 I had really begun to like Forgotten Realms and started collecting everything I could get my hands on to learn more about what the world was about from 2.0 and going into 3.5. I started a campaign that lasted for years. Some of my players had known more about FR than I did in certain areas still and as they brought forth information that they wanted to use I allowed what fit best and supported the over all story of the game. I used certain places in the realms (more than say main cities like Waterdeep) to keep the feeling of being in the realms. At times I would bring in names of main characters to give a bit of icing, in fact the characters met one or two during the game. When a part of the FR wasn't quite flushed out I would create around the basis given and sometimes it would get created as the characters were going through it. I enjoyed looking up as much information in the books and the internet to best put together a great scene/adventure. I stuck to the time line as best as I knew how unless there was 2nd edition info I wanted to put in for the fun of the game or went along best with my over all story. When big events happened in FR through novels or source books we did our best to adapt it into our FR world.
Though I have yet to attempt a campaign in 4e, I see the benefits of the reset and I'm a little torn with the history being even farther in the past.

[JoeGKushner]

I noticed that you skipped over my suggestion to tell the players that in your version she wasn't who she appeared to be in others.

Or ask the players why they'd know anything about the character through their characters in the first place.

But the FRCS, if we're talking about the third edition book, has her stats on page 276. It also notes under the city description that the new ruler is like W 18.

Note, neither of those things matters as much as the GM making the Realms his, and making the players the heroes.

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

The FRCG has about 1/4 of a page on the city, maybe 4 or 5 paragraphs...


It said the second part, not the first. Inorder to find the first I had to have a player tell me to look her up int he index, then I found her stats about 100 pages later...


woa...I didn't destroy the city, I just made it a little darker and more black on the black/grey/white scale...




I READ THE MAIN BOOK... how many books do I need to read? I guess every singe source, or there is someplace I don't know...oh wait proveing my points...




then why is it that out of everyone that has these problems, 7 out of 10 are in the realms??? Again, I have run many settings fromt he main book. Why do I need MORE for this one...





I have the consquances...I am the DM I make them up. In this case it would be a small problem in the north, but a large problem in this one city. A problem for the PCs to solve...maybe overthrow these two new guys and replace them with another good aligned ruler. However I can see already no one wants to play in the setting...




It wasn't a change...it was i know nothing past the little bit in the main book. SO I created a plot. IN any other setting that would be fine...not in FR. Heaven forbid anything was changed...

[Primal]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

well hello you meet me now...I read the books I owned...

funny, no one tells me that in any other setting...

In 2e I ran realms, darksun, birthright, ravenloft...and red steel Only one of those worlds was the base book not enough...guess witch...

No, you’re not one of the guys who don’t do their homework, if you’ve read the books you own. See below on what I wrote of reading the accessories you own. And, you can find a lot of FR-related information online, for example in FR Wiki.

Ok first I think I was wrong about silvery moon, but I know nothing of this lady alustriel... Wow I guess I was REALLY wrong she is a chosen..really how many rulers are chosen? Symbol, black staff, this chick...

There has been quite a many Chosen of Mystra over the years (and other deities have Chosen as well, e.g. Fzoul Chembryl as the Chosen of Bane in FRCS)…including the Seven Sisters.

Once again I read the campaing guide for 3e, some of the pocket novels, and part of spell Fire...I also have skimmed a few other suplments...how much "Research" must I do to be able to run this game?????

Well, if you’re going to run a campaign in Cormyr, I’d probably expect you to read ‘Cormyr’-accessory and ‘Volo’s Guide to Cormyr’ as well. And if you’re running a Waterdeep campaign, I’d suggest reading at least the ‘City of Splendors’ boxed set. If you’re running your game in Silverymoon, ‘Volo’s guide to the North’ and ‘Savage Frontier’ would be good sources (and Lady Alustriel is detailed in 3E FRCS, by the way). If you don’t own the books, *then* it’s another matter; I don’t expect the DM to invest heavily (financially) in every campaign, i.e. order 1E/2E stuff via Amazon or eBay just to run it according to the canon. However, if you *do* own the books, I’d expect you to read the sources you have on Silverymoon or Cormyr or wherever you want to place your campaign in.

wow the eltiest is strong in this arguement...I do spend time world building, notice you don't care WHY I changed it though...so let me now tell you some more...

The eberon game these two character were from was an evil game, and there main goal was to take over a big city, then settle down there and rule. I figured I could use them as a quick plot thread to introduce a plot about 'retuerning justice tot he city'...how ever like many canon lawyers you don't care becuse I made a change to your setting...

Um, what? I think I did explain that I don’t care about DM/campaign-specific changes, *if* they’re logical and/or explained in-game as well; if a DM would, however, implement the Eberron pantheon into his FR campaign and drop Greyhawk City into the middle of the Western Heartlands just because he can, I’d probably have a problem with that. Just as I’m sure Eberron fans would have a problem if in my campaign I’d replace Karrnath’s (sp?) ruler with a mid-level paladin NPC called Fritz van Uberwalder and swap Sharn with Suzail from FR (and unless I’m wrong, Karrnath’s ruler is a pretty high-level undead NPC who, as many Eberron fans would likely point out, could not be killed by a mid-level solo paladin).

Although I love details and using as much as lore as possible, I don’t adhere slavishly to canon, if I think changing or ignoring something benefits the campaign. As for my comment about worldbuilding… did you realize that it wasn’t a jab at you? It was simply a personal opinion that I don’t waste my time in campaigns in which the DM rewrites everything just because he feel reading the books [he owns] is too much work.

can someone please tell me why the main book of the setting is not enough???

You can run a campaign with a single book, but using a detailed setting with experienced players might not be a good idea if the DM is new to the setting. And this applies to Dragonlance, Eberron, Dark Sun and any other setting you choose to name just as well as it does to FR. As I’ve said, I could just pick up ECS and run an Eberron campaign on basis of that… however, I’m fairly sure that many Eberron experts would point out that I shouldn’t run a campaign in Stormreach or adventures in Argonessen without proper sourcebooks and maps. I *could* say that it’s my Eberron campaign… but then again, so you could with FR, too. Also, many regions in FR haven't received much attention since the Grey Boxed Set anyway, so it would be way easier to set a campaign in one of these areas if you feel your players know more about the "popular" areas than you do.

And this also depends on the players, too... I've run games for people who were not into details or taking notes, and I remember a few times when such players told me to skip descriptions and details and get to rolling initiative. On the other hand, my own regular players favor social interaction, history, details and intrigue over combat, and everyone takes notes about everything.

the problem is if you have a person who is heavyly invested in the setting like Primal seams to be, they don't like change...

Change for change’s sake and/or ignoring published material or replacing it with something else because you don’t like to read accessories you own is bad in my books. I'm okay with changes that are internally consistent and logical (i.e. there's a plausible reason, and it doesn't "break" any "rules" of the setting), especially if you're changing something because you feel it's going to benefit everyone.

I did finaly give up on published setting in 3.5...infact I said when 4e was announced I would not only not buy said setting, but nothing from them would be used. Then I herd about the 100 jump/fix to ferun, and the swordmage. I love BOTH setting relased so far, and wonder why the realms was allowed to become so boged down to beging with...

Because for many fans that level of details was the lure and “meat” of the setting?

[thecasualoblivion]

A setting should not have expectations so strong that a DM could end up ridiculed or harrassed by his players for getting the setting "wrong".

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Primal

No, you’re not one of the guys who don’t do their homework, if you’ve read the books you own. See below on what I wrote of reading the accessories you own. And, you can find a lot of FR-related information online, for example in FR Wiki.

I just don't own that many FR books...

(and Lady Alustriel is detailed in 3E FRCS, by the way).

about 100 pages after the city...no refrence to those stats...I only knew becuse one of my friends told me to look at the index...

Um, what? I think I did explain that I don’t care about DM/campaign-specific changes, *if* they’re logical and/or explained in-game as well;

but it is illogical that these two bad guys killed her???

if a DM would, however, implement the Eberron pantheon into his FR campaign and drop Greyhawk City into the middle of the Western Heartlands just because he can, I’d probably have a problem with that.

that is not what I did

It was simply a personal opinion that I don’t waste my time in campaigns in which the DM rewrites everything just because he feel reading the books [he owns] is too much work.

what about one that just owns less books...

You can run a campaign with a single book, but using a detailed setting with experienced players might not be a good idea if the DM is new to the setting. And this applies to Dragonlance, Eberron, Dark Sun and any other setting you choose to name just as well as it does to FR.

but the thing is most people don't run into these problems in any other setting...

Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion

A setting should not have expectations so strong that a DM could end up ridiculed or harrassed by his players for getting the setting "wrong".

QFT

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion

A setting should not have expectations so strong that a DM could end up ridiculed or harrassed by his players for getting the setting "wrong".

Guess you won't be doing any historical games then. But honestly, I think either your standards are too high, or you haven't met the players I have. In my experience, players can be quite nit-picky, and unless your game has no connection to reality, something can always trip you up.

Of course, I might just say that if your players are ridiculing or harassing you, then you have a problem that's not related to the setting. It's related to the interaction between the DM and player, and should be addressed on that basis instead. Especially since players can have concerns about their expectations that don't amount to ridicule or harassment.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

but the thing is most people don't run into these problems in any other setting...

How do you know what most people don't run into?