Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

[wingsandsword]

This is about the so-called "canon lawyer", the person with huge archives of Forgotten Realms knowledge in their head that not only knows obscure minutiae of Faerun and Abeir-Toril, they also expect any FR game to use all of this. They are notorious for makin an issue out of when something comes up in a game that contradicts something they know about the setting, especially something that most players would consider a minor detail.

I've heard a lot of theories/explanations that this was one of the big reasons for the gutting/nuking of the Realms for 4e, that these "canon lawyers" were making life miserable on DM's that couldn't keep up with the vast lore of the Forgotten Realms (that frankly, nobody except maybe somebody who was paid to do so by WotC could be expected to completely keep up with), so they jumped the timeline ahead 100+ years, killed off or drove mads loads of people and slaughtered a good number of deities all as a giant reset switch to invalidate tons of canon so DMs could run Forgotten Realms canonically without worrying about what was written before.

The thing is, I always hear these "canon lawyer" horror stories online but I never ran across them in real life. When I run Forgotten Realms the players I run with generally know the Realms from playing Baldur's Gate or following some of the novels (particularly the Elminster or Drizzt ones), or they are also a casual fan and have read some of the gaming materials, especially those about a part of the setting they prefer (one of my friends likes Netheril, for example, and knows that decently well, but he couldn't rattle off dates and obscure minutiae). They all understand that they are playing in that setting, but it isn't precisely like everything and that I am only human. I am trying to keep the game fairly close to the setting as published, certainly enough that a casual fan won't notice, but I can't promise 100% canon match, they certainly don't ask for it, and I think I wouldn't take it well if I had someone join a game I was running that really tried to throw obscure esoteric lore from some novel or some sourcebook I haven't read in my face.

I've ran into them in message boards, like when I once said something about the Forgotten Realms that is contradicted by some obscure public e-mail Ed Greenwood from years ago that was dutifully archived, and I've heard some horror stories about them here, but I do really wonder, just how common are they in typical Forgotten Realms D&D play?

[thecasualoblivion]

I've seen one or two of them. The big problem with them is once you've seen one in action, the setting is pretty much ruined for you for all time. Just looking at the setting, all the novels and all the canon, you can see the seeds where these people sprout from. For most of its 2E and 3E lifespan, the Forgotten Realms through sourcebooks and novels provided a metric ton of what some people refer to as "continuity porn". This lends credence to the stories of these canon lawyers. Most of us are geeks, enough to have witnessed Star Wars/Star Trek fanatics arguing over minutiae at some point in our lives, so the feeling is familiar. There is also a lesser evil with this, and that is that the canon lawyer, even if he's not ruining the game for other people overtly, can dominate or steal the spotlight in other ways. I saw this when I was running the Dragonlance modules, where the one player I had who read the books was catching the little setting details and appreciating them where everybody else just walked on by. Combining this with her greater knowledge of Dragonlance geography and history kind of made her the center of the game regardless of her own behavior.

Canon lawyers aren't the only problem with FR. Just as big of a problem were Mary Sue DMs. These tended not to be canon lawyers but novel fanboys, who tend to insert their favorite novel characters into their campaigns as intolerable Mary Sues.

[ggroy]

I've met two Forgotten Realms "canon lawyers" so far. I had no idea what these guys were complaining about in the 3.5E FR game I was playing in. At the time, I was relatively clueless about Forgotten Realms for the most part. I had never read any of the FR novels and I didn't have any FR splatbooks or modules at the time. (Even today, I still have not read any FR novels).

After awhile, these FR "canon lawyers" got really annoying. Though it didn't turn me off from the setting.

For other settings such as Eberron, Golarion, etc ..., I haven't met any hardcore "canon lawyers" yet for these particular settings.

[Bumbles]

You can go your whole life without running into any of the archetypes, be it a canon lawyer, a rules lawyer, a munchkin, a power-gamer, a min-maxer, or whatever others you'd care to name.

Doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also, vampires are REAL!

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by wingsandsword

This is about the so-called "canon lawyer", the person with huge archives of Forgotten Realms knowledge in their head that not only knows obscure minutiae of Faerun and Abeir-Toril, they also expect any FR game to use all of this.

In my experiance it isn't even that they expect it to all be used, but they respond expecting X when other people at the table (event he DM sometimes) have no idea why...

The thing is, I always hear these "canon lawyer" horror stories online but I never ran across them in real life.

How many Cons have you gone to? I only ask becuse if not for Gen Con 1999 I would have never thought anyone else ever ran into this. Since then ever Con I have been to (except last year) I have herd some variant of these horror stories (although not always in the realms)

They all understand that they are playing in that setting, but it isn't precisely like everything and that I am only human. I am trying to keep the game fairly close to the setting as published, certainly enough that a casual fan won't notice, but I can't promise 100% canon match, they certainly don't ask for it, and I think I wouldn't take it well if I had someone join a game I was running that really tried to throw obscure esoteric lore from some novel or some sourcebook I haven't read in my face.

See it isn't even always "thrown in faces"...like my friend Ross. He is a sweet guy. He never really argues, but he is a Realms Cannon Lawyer. He always ever single FR game in 2e or 3e (even a little in LFR 4e) has a story. Oh this city is where X happened...or this king is really controled by the zents...or Did you know X character was changed from Class A to Class B in the edtion switch...or Heyin Volo's guide...In elminster;s Ecology...

but I do really wonder, just how common are they in typical Forgotten Realms D&D play?

They are just common enough to have upset enough people to make it a vocal problem...

Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion

I've seen one or two of them. The big problem with them is once you've seen one in action, the setting is pretty much ruined for you for all time.

This is where I was pre 4e.
I have meet more then a few fans of the novels, and each has his onw thing...but I have meet 3 "canon Lawyers" infact one is mty roommate. ((also one of them, not the roommate, was the worst of the rules lawyers, power gamers, and drama queen we had for a while))

Most of us are geeks, enough to have witnessed Star Wars/Star Trek fanatics arguing over minutiae at some point in our lives, so the feeling is familiar.

On the other hand I have had every single attept to do eaither star trek or star wars RPGs as player and DM shut down by this...I don't think I can count on both hands togather the number of rabid fan boys I know for both...

Canon lawyers aren't the only problem with FR. Just as big of a problem were Mary Sue DMs. These tended not to be canon lawyers but novel fanboys, who tend to insert their favorite novel characters into their campaigns as intolerable Mary Sues.

but the biggest problem is that Ed greenwood himself endurces and helped push this out..If you find his interview at the Tomb you will find a story he tells of the PCs being held by a king and about to be excuted...then elminster barges in and tells the king he must speak with him privatly right awya ((Of cource what king would dare refuse the sage of mary sue)) as el and the king went to a private room El winked at the PCs and motioned for them to run away...

Now just to put this in perspective this was his idea of el being 'played right' by the DM.





Now I also want to say, the NPC thing is a problem becuse of how I run games. I normaly start out low level as the PCs are adventures...by the mid levels they work as qusy mercs, sometimes I even fall back on the "Person A finds you and begs for help" archtype...
By like 12th leve (2nd or 3rd edtion) I have plot lines running (sometimes right from level 1 I lay them in there) were something HUGE is going down. My 13+ level games where always legendary...Good Vs Evil on some epic scale. The PCs have to save the whole world...or even multivers.
The problem being When the you know what hits the fan (Example I had a red wizard plot to invade...opps I didn't know there were chosen of the god of magic devoting large portions of there lives to fight said threat) I expect the PCs to feel a little out classed, and to have to scramble and start to build to the big climax that might take levels...What do i do when the PCs say "We can get the Harpers to help" or "Hey they are invading Symbol's contry we can get her help" or "(Insert NPC from a novel) has been ready to fight them since (Insert event I didn't even know about)"

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

You can go your whole life without running into any of the archetypes, be it a canon lawyer, a rules lawyer, a munchkin, a power-gamer, a min-maxer, or whatever others you'd care to name.

Or you could sit down at a Con to your first LFR event and have one of each at your table...

[jdrakeh]

Originally Posted by wingsandsword

I've ran into them in message boards, like when I once said something about the Forgotten Realms that is contradicted by some obscure public e-mail Ed Greenwood from years ago that was dutifully archived, and I've heard some horror stories about them here, but I do really wonder, just how common are they in typical Forgotten Realms D&D play?

I've run into at least three such "canon lawyers" IRL and, while that doesn't sound so bad, their behavior was irritating enough that more than a decade later I still won't sit down at a table with them and it greatly soured me on any version of FR other than the original grey box.

[vagabundo]

Never ran into them in RL. But I'm pretty sure they are out there - they mostly come out at night I hear.

I always thought that WotC should have released a Quarterly update for FR DMs with meta-plot updates. It would be nice for those who don't follow the novels or miss a supplement. I think it would have made my FR games more satisfying to run, from my point of view.

[S'mon]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

but the biggest problem is that Ed greenwood himself endurces and helped push this out..If you find his interview at the Tomb you will find a story he tells of the PCs being held by a king and about to be excuted...then elminster barges in and tells the king he must speak with him privatly right awya ((Of cource what king would dare refuse the sage of mary sue)) as el and the king went to a private room El winked at the PCs and motioned for them to run away...

Now just to put this in perspective this was his idea of el being 'played right' by the DM.

Slightly OT - These tales of Ed - in his own words, usually - always make wonder to what extent his players can actually have enjoyed his game. It just seems so appallingly bad GMing. I also wonder about the thinking in TSR at the time they chose Ed and his setting to be, effectively, the new face of TSR, replacing Gygax and Greyhawk. Was this deliberate, moving away from Gygax's pseudo-malevolent GMing & rather bleak setting? Did they not know, or think, about the implications of what we now call Mary Sue-ism? Did they think "Well it's like Gandalf, saving the hobbits. No fun if your hobbit gets killed..."?

[ExploderWizard]

There is a good fix for these jokers. Find out their most favorite FR character and introduce him/her as an NPC in the game. In the following session kill off that NPC with a nice Tratyn Runewind style death and move on with the game. You might want to wear a bulletproof vest though.

[vagabundo]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

There is a good fix for these jokers. Find out their most favorite FR character and introduce him/her as an NPC in the game. In the following session kill off that NPC with a nice Tratyn Runewind style death and move on with the game. You might want to wear a bulletproof vest though.

I picture a horrible war with two lines of impaled NPCs lining the road to Waterdeep - a smoking ruin of what it once was - and Elminister is at the head of an army of demons and orcs, a cruel war-master and tyrant.

Forgotten Dark-Realms. Or Forget the Realms you once knew or something....

[FireLance]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

There is a good fix for these jokers. Find out their most favorite FR character and introduce him/her as an NPC in the game. In the following session kill off that NPC with a nice Tratyn Runewind style death and move on with the game. You might want to wear a bulletproof vest though.

Nice reference, but how many people do you think actually read Bimbos of the Death Sun?

[ExploderWizard]

Originally Posted by FireLance

Nice reference, but how many people do you think actually read Bimbos of the Death Sun?

It is my hope that this has been read by everyone who has been to a con ever.

[FireLance]

Originally Posted by vagabundo

I picture a horrible war with two lines of impaled NPCs lining the road to Waterdeep - a smoking ruin of what it once was - and Elminister is at the head of an army of demons and orcs, a cruel war-master and tyrant.

Forgotten Dark-Realms. Or Forget the Realms you once knew or something....

Sunforgotten Darkrealms. The Dragon Elminster stalks the desert sands of Faerun, collecting his annual tribute of maidens from the seven city-states ruled by the Seven Sorcerer-Queen Sisters.

Personally, I think Darkdragon Sunlance, in which cannibal kender discover defiling magic and launch a world-ravaging genocide against all the other sentient races, has the better metaplot.

[vagabundo]

Originally Posted by FireLance

Sunforgotten Darkrealms. The Dragon Elminster stalks the desert sands of Faerun, collecting his annual tribute of maidens from the seven city-states ruled by the Seven Sorcerer-Queen Sisters.

Personally, I think Darkdragon Sunlance, in which cannibal kender discover defiling magic and launch a world-ravaging genocide against all the other sentient races, has the better metaplot.

I think we're nearly ready to pitch this baby. SCOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT................

[Dice4Hire]

I've complained about this myself in several threads. I played in a YAhoogroups game (which is still going strong years and years later, to their credit) and had one full-fledged and a couple noviate canon lawyers in there. Man, it was a pain.

To be fair to FR, I like the map, I like many of the regions, and I like some of the things they do there. It has always caught my imagination far more than Ebberon or many other campaign settings, and the FRCS was one of the best first non-core books I bought for 3.0, and I have not regretted buying it to this day for all its idea goodness.

The problem is playing FR with other people. If they are totally ignorant, like me, then it works well. If not, it does not, tothe point that for the last 8+ years of online gaming I have declined to join dozens of games due to a pair of simple letters in the game name or description. One is an 'F' You can guess the other.

[Doug McCrae]

I've never met one in real life, but I'm sure they exist. The sheer size of the realms encourages that type of fan. Y'know, really nerdy ones who love lots of pointless detail.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

but the biggest problem is that Ed greenwood himself endurces and helped push this out..If you find his interview at the Tomb you will find a story he tells of the PCs being held by a king and about to be excuted...then elminster barges in and tells the king he must speak with him privatly right awya ((Of cource what king would dare refuse the sage of mary sue)) as el and the king went to a private room El winked at the PCs and motioned for them to run away...

Ed Greenwood is the queen of Mary Sues. The wink at the end is particularly fey and Greenwood-y. The whole damn place is a Canadian hippy free love swingers party inhabited by creepy old men who look like Gandalf.

Except naked.

[S'mon]

Originally Posted by Doug McCrae

Ed Greenwood is the queen of Mary Sues. The wink at the end is particularly fey and Greenwood-y. The whole damn place is a Canadian hippy free love swingers party inhabited by creepy old men who look like Gandalf.

Except naked.

Yeah, umm, the thing is, did mid-Western TSR management realise this back in ca 1987 when they adopted Vancouverite Forgotten Realms and Greenwood as the new face of TSR? It just seems mind-boggling to me.

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by S'mon

Slightly OT - These tales of Ed - in his own words, usually - always make wonder to what extent his players can actually have enjoyed his game. It just seems so appallingly bad GMing.

Originally Posted by Doug McCrae

Ed Greenwood is the queen of Mary Sues. The wink at the end is particularly fey and Greenwood-y.

Originally Posted by S'mon

Yeah, umm, the thing is, did mid-Western TSR management realise this back in ca 1987 when they adopted Vancouverite Forgotten Realms and Greenwood as the new face of TSR? It just seems mind-boggling to me.

First I want to make sure everyone understands the Tomb Pod cast is not the first I herd of this sort of thing, however it is the only one I can back up with a recent quote...

But how can players who hate when there DMs railroad, mary sue and everything else even try to ask for them to do better, when the DM can come back with "The creater of the whole damn world agrees this is the RIGHT way to play it"