General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
1) Warrior, Mage. 'Expect to see'. . .? Yes, just these.
2) Generally speaking, heavily modded d20 does these best, IMO. That is, when I want plenty of abilities to be explicit, rather than purely down to description / DM fiat, etc.
3) I doubt it. There's not much that hasn't been done countless times.
1.) Warrior/Tank/Melee Guy. Wizard with staff and robes. Healer/Priest. Thief/sneak/nimble guy. Archer/wilderness guy. Sometimes, the unarmed warrior-monk (depending on the source), the nature-priest/shaman or the warrior/wizard hybrid.
2.) Specifically? No. In general, I like a game where each class has a unique niche (and perhaps unique mechanics to do it) but none overshadow the other. A hard task no game has managed to pull off yet.
3.) Seriously? No. Its all been done under the sun at this point. I cannot think of a single class now needed (and apparently, neither did WotC come the end of the 3e line).
Make action concepts independent of setting or genre. These are very iconic to the point of being totally abstract. For example a magician could be a character that can draw specific relations with the local elements of your world. A D&D rogue could be a character that can move himself from point to point. Etch. These are the distinct qualities of the archetypes and must be stronger in their iconic archetypes. I would recommend to limit yourself in 4 basic archetypes and then create combinations. Now fluff them according to your setting and you are ready to go -gameplay ready, you can't beat this procedure.
1) What type of character concepts do you expect to see in a Fantasy RPG?
Armor-wearing warrior. Light armored, fast guy. Spellcaster.
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3) Do you have any original concepts for a class, or a new spin on an old concept?
Mystic/Medium. Rather than trying to control ghosts or spirits, the medium can just see/talk to them. The mystic/medium can be possessed by them, to gain insight/certain powers depending on what's possessing them (of course, it's possession; there's obvious drawbacks there). Toss in some astral projection/traveling into the realm of the dead or into dreams, some folk magic (like a little warding or protecting), and a little divination, and boom, done.
Definitely would enjoy some Thamutergy. Think voodoo, but extending beyond that. Maybe someone who deals with lots of wards and defenses.
Speaking of wards and defenses, I sure as hell would like to see a Trapper class. Someone who makes traps.
1) What type of character concepts do you expect to see in a Fantasy RPG?
Since this thread is explicitly about classes, I will use the following answer, but I would probably give a different answer if we were talking about a classless RPG.
There are actually a fairly large number of classes I would expect to see in any RPG. A conservative list would be...
The armored knight who can protect his allies.
The offensive magic-user who can rain down magical destruction on his foes.
The magic-user who is skilled at healing and has mastery over holy power.
The agile thief/skirmisher.
A dedicated archer and/or gun-user (depending on setting and tone of the game).
The classic monk/barehanded-fighter.
A lightly-armored warrior who combines swordplay and magic.
A mage who summons and controls powerful magic creatures.
Alternate melee combat concepts that use different styles or weapons.
Ninja.
A mounted combat fighter, preferably one that uses exotic and cool mounts, such as dragons or griffins.
Classes built around song and/or dance, that have powerful support or offensive effects.
The berserker/barbarian/wild-man class.
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2) Of these concepts, can you think of any mechanical executions of that concept that you particularly like?
There are all kinds of versions of these that I like. For example, I am very fond of the Bard and Dancer classes from the videogame Final Fantasy Tactics, and the Bard from Final Fantasy III. While it is a bit complicated, I like the "class" used by the character Gau in Final Fantasy VI as a version of the Berserker archetype. The Sorcerer/Swordmage from Final Fantasy V is elegant and solid. The armored and mobile Dragon Knights of Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn are both a lot of fun and a testament to how you can create great classes without special mechanics whatsoever.
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3) Do you have any original concepts for a class, or a new spin on an old concept?
Plenty. I'll save them, though.
Of course, any given class system is always going to be incomplete in comparison to the vast array of different character ideas seen throughout the fantasy genre that can be easily converted into distinct classes. As such, there are always more class ideas, and they tend to be more fun and interesting the further you get away from the default list.
1) What type of character concepts do you expect to see in a Fantasy RPG?
Well, it depends. Not all Fantasy RPGs are going to be the same sort of thing or genre. The entire spectrum of Fantasy is really too large to comment upon.
So for the sake of argument, I'll assume we're talking about Dungeon Fantasy. A group of adventurers going out to break into monsters' houses, punch them in the face and take their stuff.
First you've got to get to the monster's lair and since they're always a lengthy commute away, you need some kind of wilderness guy. This guy can track monsters, read a map and pack trail rations. He was probably a scout. In many games this will be the archery specialist.
Once you get there, you'll need to get the door open so you'll have someone who can tickle a lock. In all likelihood they're good at getting past traps too. In combat they're probably the fast, sneaky fighter.
Then you need to actually defeat the monster. This guy is probably a skilled generalist fighter, since they need to handle a wide variety of monsters. In high level D&D it's probably a mage that actually fills this role because... well, you know.
Then you need someone to carry the stuff. In order to be able to pick it all up in one go they'll need a high strength. Since they might need to take it over cliffs, across rivers and over pit traps they'll need the physical skills. This is what the D&D fighter is actually good at.
Since it's a fantasy game, you'll probably have a few extra options with strange and exotic powers just to get that fantasy feel. The choice of what kind of weird powers are on offer will heavily set the tone of the game. Give them voodoo powers and it'll be a very different fantasy game to one where they invoke the four elements.
Last edited by MichaelK; 2nd July 2009 at 06:37 AM..
Reason: apostrophe given me an apoplexy
under 2), assuming you have a classed based system,is it important that the classes all need the same mechanics/system/rules?
for example, and plz dont degrade to an edition war, in 4th the classes have quite similar mechanics...a spell power looks like a melee power, and say WHFRP where the starting professions have pretty similar numbers.
whereas in earlier editions of D&D the mechanics of a spell where quite different to the mechanics of a melee attack.
I like classed systems, so id quite favour systems where the classes look very different to each other, and there abilities often follow almost different rules, to another class.
1) What type of character concepts do you expect to see in a Fantasy RPG?
2) Of these concepts, can you think of any mechanical executions of that concept that you particularly like?
3) Do you have any original concepts for a class, or a new spin on an old concept?
1) Difficult to answer, since it depends a lot on the setting. Assuming the setting includes magic, I'd expect a minimum of two character concepts: a magic user and a non-magic user.
2) Dunno about the first two, could you elaborate on why you're asking?
3) Back when I thought about non-combat roles I came up with the idea of an architect class. I don't think I've ever seen that in any game.
I am a firm believer that the base classes in a class-based fantasy role-playing system should reflect pre-existing archetypes and tropes, and only pre-existing archetypes and tropes. Otherwise, it's pointless to use classes at all. The advantage of a class-based system is the ability to get games going more quickly by being able to point to some precedent in mythology, literature, or real-world history and say "your character is like that". That's why I believe a class-based system like D&D should never have been weighed down by skills and feats, which work better in class-free, point-based systems.
I think the base classes (for player characters) should be Warrior, Thief, and Magic-User. I'm of the opinion that Clerics as a class are not necessary, because they can represented either by Warriors under holy orders, or by Magic-Users. I think Magic Users should have the ability to use healing magic, just like they do in legend. I've always been somewhat dissatisfied with the disconnect between D&D magic and the magic of real-world legend, and would like to see the two much more closely linked.
Subclasses of Warrior could be things like Soldier, Crusader, Knight, Gladiator, Ranger, and Archer.
Subclasses of Thief could be things like Con Man, Cat Burglar, Thug, Highwayman, Assassin, and Tomb Robber.
Sublasses of Magic-User could be things like Witch, Conjuror (summons and binds demons and other explaner creatures), Illusionist, Theurgist (uses divine names and powers to create effects like a wizard), Necromancer, Saint, and Prophet.
I've never been completely satisfied by the way the classes have been represented in any D&D, although generally I think the older versions of the classes were generally better than the newer ones (which sometimes seem to be almost completely divorced from mythology and classic fantasy literature) The Classic D&D thief really got the short-end of the stick at lower levels, however. Also, I like that 4th Edition introduced the use of implements for Wizards, which does actually make them more like their legendary precedents.
One thing that I think was always missing from D&D was the ability to represent warriors in loincloths or chainmail bikinis as effective characters. It's such a strong fantasy trope that the ability to play such a character (perhaps with an ability that improve their base AC with level) should really have been present.
One thing that I think was always missing from D&D was the ability to represent warriors in loincloths or chainmail bikinis as effective characters. It's such a strong fantasy trope that the ability to play such a character (perhaps with an ability that improve their base AC with level) should really have been present.
Actually, that 'trope' is more a matter of artwork than writing. Even Conan wore armor when he could get it! (Swashbucklers are a different matter, but come from a different 'world' than the usual mideival characters D&D expects.)
__________________ Scrag 'em all and let the gods sort 'em out!
1) What type of character concepts do you expect to see in a Fantasy RPG?
Expect as in want, or expect as in "Yeah, I know I'm going to see these"?
For "I know I'm going to" I agree with those people who say it depends on the fantasy and the setting, but I think it still boils down to three: "guy who uses the hitting", "guy who uses the knowing", and "guy who uses the magic". Everything else is slapping labels onto these.
For "want" I have a different arrangement: "guy who does physical stuff", "guy who does mental stuff", and various combos of those two AKA "hybrid guy". I don't believe in magic being its own archtype, I believe that magic is generally a version of "guy who does mental stuff" and other cases are usually "hybrid guys" with magic layered on after the archtype.
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Originally Posted by Hexmage-EN
2) Of these concepts, can you think of any mechanical executions of that concept that you particularly like?
No.
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Originally Posted by Hexmage-EN
3) Do you have any original concepts for a class, or a new spin on an old concept?
Given how much stuff is out there I wouldn't bet anything I can say has not been done before. So being lazy I won't.
1) What type of character concepts do you expect to see in a Fantasy RPG?
2) Of these concepts, can you think of any mechanical executions of that concept that you particularly like?
3) Do you have any original concepts for a class, or a new spin on an old concept?
1) Originally, the classic 4 of fighter, thief, magic-user, and cleric. Now, more along the lines of warrior, expert, and adept, ala True20/generic classes from UA.
2) Honestly, there are multiple interpretations that I really like. While I enjoy the simple fun of playing Basic/Expert D&D, I also like the newer versions presented in 3.X & 4th ed. Personally, I really like the idea of having generic classes that can apply to a broad variety of concepts & that can be built to a player's particular tastes.
3) Actually, I grew to like how classes were designed in Star Wars Saga Ed., & I kinda wish that D&D went that way (though I don't have any problems with the current version of the game). Just have 3+ core classes that are highly customizable. I know of the Sword & Sorcery version created, but I'd like to see a version suitable for a broad range of fantasy genres, and not just for a more low-magic themed setting.
__________________ Ageless, Faceless, Gender-Neutral, Culturally-Ambiguous Adventure Person
That would be such an amazingly fun Leader class to play in 4e.
No, You Idiot! Instructor Daily 1 "How many times do I have to tell you?" Daily * Martial? Standard Action Close burst 5 Target: One ally Effect: The target makes an at-will attack against an enemy of your choice, and gains a bonus to attack rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of the encounter. Before or after the attack, the target may shift a number of squares equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Shine My Boots Instructor Utility 2 "You missed a spot." Encounter * Martial? Immediate InterruptClose burst 1 Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by an attack. Target: the triggering ally Effect: The ally gains a bonus to AC and Reflex against the attack equal to your Intelligence modifier
Or, you could just reskin the Shaman, do the Wis/Int build, and treat the spirit companion as an apprentice. Instead of actually disappearing when dealt the damage, he just scurries over to you and requires a minor action to be redeployed.
__________________ Every time I see the word Pavlov, I salivate. =(
1 & 2) I could live with the true20/UA classes too, but I prefer to see the Expert as the fast/agile guy rather than the skills guy or maybe just as a subset of fighter.
The dnd cleric has always felt like a fighter/caster hybrid to me and even then, having both clerics and paladin is redundant.
I think the healer and wizard are just variants of a same archetype but I guess for spellcasters more than warriors, some variants (priest, elementalist, necromancer, telepath...) could be considered classes of their own when they do really different things. The warrior would then also need subclasses to even things up (knight-in-shiny-armor, leather-thonged-barbarian, flamboyant swashbuckler, sneaky archer..)
Mechanically I prefer casters and non-casters to use different sub-systems even if it's more difficult to balance. If they have to use the same resource management mechanic, I'd rather have casters go at-will than non-casters go vancian. A point system for both could also work for me.
3) not that I know of. (maybe flamboyant-leather-thonged-archer-in-shiny-armor but I'm afraid that's a bit too much of a niche concept)
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_ Ceterum censeo the encounter/daily power system is an unholy blight upon D&Ddom
5e can't come soon enough
Last edited by lutecius; 3rd July 2009 at 04:33 PM..
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