General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
What was the last character you made who was intentionally 'pathetic'? What rule system did you use, and how did you royally screw him over? Why did you create the character? Were you looking for a tactical challenge? How did the character play out?
I ask this because, honestly, I've never really tried this. I also really haven't seen this much either. I am playing a 3.5 wizard right now who took evocation and necromancy as his banned schools. I created the character because we were all playing elves and I figured who cares about the mechanics, I'm assuming elves might be better enchanters and of all the schools they probably would feel evocation and necromancy would be the most dangerous (I'm playing him as a bit of a pacifist hippy). We've only been playing for like 4th months and he's only level 2, but he's still alive. Sleep for the win!
In the games I've ran, the most pathetic character I ever saw was a basic vanilla 3.5 fighter. The player chose to wield a shortsword and light armor because he'd just seen the movie Troy. Needless to say he didn't survive long.
I had a RPGA character for Living Greyhawk who was a one-trick pony. I really like creating characters as one-trick ponies as that's my kind of play style and have a lot of fun. I created a fighter who wielded a tower shield and flail. He could do two things--have feats and abilities that gave him a sick AC (at 5th level, I think I got it up to 34 or 39 with the feats, magic items, etc.) and could do trip attacks. As far as straight-up fighting as a fighter should, he was terrible. If he did hit, it was only minimal damage of 1d8+2 and he was better off doing trips, Aid Another, or purposely move through the areas and draw AoO's so that the rogue and other weaker characters (hp wise) can just get up for flanking.
He was a "loser" in that with a lot of RPGA modules, they are deadly and they really cater that classes should be maxed out in order to survive some of them (clerics should heal, rogues sneak, fighters fight, and wizards blast away). Well, my guy didn't do that so some modules were really hard for us to do.
Another character I created for the RPGA was having a rogue who banked everything just to have a high UMD check at starting levels so he wasn't effective at lower levels for the typical rogue stuff such as sneaking.
I created other one-trick pony characters that were more effective, and just as fun.
I'm playing one right now: the NPC, Thomas (named after my favorite philosopher, who the character is a mockery of). He is a gestalt wizard/rogue (feat variant, no SA) in our gestalt game. He knows not a single offensive/damaging spell, not even grease. ...Except for the cantrips he gets for free, I guess. he does not carry a weapon. He's obsessive-compulsive and afraid terrified of everything, frequently running away, hiding invisibly, or curling up into the fetal position. He was originally a "required" NPC to help the PCs navigate some ruins, and was thus needed to be kept alive. I figured instead of the normal in that situation -- the NPC is frustratingly difficult to protect and gets into trouble -- I'd do the exact opposite. He puts all his resources into AC and not getting hit or even into combat. He has no qualms leaving the PCs behind if things go south, using the time it takes for them to die as a "speed bump" on the aggressors to buy his own self some more escape time.
Surprisingly, the PCs came to like his almost cartoonish annoying qualities and kept him around after that dungeon. Since then, he's actually proven useful on many occasions in various and/or unexpected ways. Like having enough knowledge to identify anything they see. Or in one of the last sessions, when the party had to infiltrate a drow house, kill all inside, and frame a different faction for it (the party is evil, I should mention). The mansion had only one door in/out besides some windows, and he actually had hold portal prepared! So later on, when we entered through the windows and failed to be sneaky...the victims ended up wasting precious rounds struggling with the door fruitlessly. If some had escaped, there'd have been witnesses, and the whole mission would have been a failure.
EDIT: 3.5 rules set. Oh, also, he's the only person in the party with Trapfinding. I guess that also makes him pretty useful.
My online gaming group, Torch of Spirit (Contains all information for the current game I'm co-DMing as well as lots of houserules I'm using or considering for the future. Feel free to check it out.)
Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2nd July 2009 at 07:56 PM..
I played this one person with crazily bad rolled stats on this random custom system on OpenRPG. I then proceeded to raise the stats evenly as I leveled.
Why? Cause random stats are unbalanced and their level up mechanic was messed up, so I needed to prove both and I rolled low.
End result was a character who was about as effective as a normal character half her level. And nobody caring. Also me leaving.
Playing a crappy character is irritating to me. Similarly, having to rely on a crappy character is also that way. The lovably cute and stumbly person who can't really help in combat gets old, same as any other one trick pony. Even more so if a person refuses to have their character adapt to the new situation they find themselfs in to maintain their foible.
Of course, that kinda goes into the playing ACTUAL losers, instead of APPERENT ones. I find I can make up weaknesses and depth of character without mechanical penalites though. And characterize them just fine. But YMMV.
Do you pick your friends based on their skillsets? Yes, I know you aren't an adventurer, but do remember that the typical D&D adventuring party has each other, and that's it. No other friends, nobody else to be with.
Not all adventure stories are about a group of folks who choose their companions for their skills. Not everyone wants to explore the "best of the best of the best".
Best fictional reference I can think of - Peter Beagle's "The Last Unicorn". Schmendrick the Magician is a complete loser, and no party who needed a magician they could really count on would ever have him. But somehow, the Unicorn and Molly Grue and he stick together, depend on each other, and get through to the end.
Sometimes, mutual need and caring for each other has a lot more to do with sticking together than exactly how skillful you are or aren't.
Yes. Well said. Fictional characters can actually be like people that consider things beyond the stats.
Why did the Fellowship put up with Sam, Merry, and Pippen? They were not experienced adventurers and didn't have much to bring to the table as it were.
Zander and Willow in the early episodes of Buffy were just high school kids but they came along and faced danger.
These characters went into harms way without the skills or powers to be "effective" because they were loyal friends and the friendship actually meant something.
I don't think I've ever played a character I would describe as pathetic, but I have played some that I intentionally disadvantaged because it made them more interesting to me.
I played a one armed diviner who had his arm destroyed by a magical trap. Before the game started I had envisioned a much more laid back character, but the first in character line every spoke to him was, "hey Stumpy" and he was forever set in stone as a frustrated and caustic little man. Boy did he ever hate asking for help.
Currently my L4W character is a dwarven wizard who is mad, and not just a little mad. It's actually the first character I've ever played that I worry sometimes if I might have went a little too far, because he's the completely cracked, voices in the head kind of insane. More repellent than charmingly eccentric.
__________________ Oni
"Each man, one way.
Each horse, one stance.
Each church, one buddha.
Each master to his own technique."
Why did the Fellowship put up with Sam, Merry, and Pippen? They were not experienced adventurers and didn't have much to bring to the table as it were.
Zander and Willow in the early episodes of Buffy were just high school kids but they came along and faced danger.
These characters went into harms way without the skills or powers to be "effective" because they were loyal friends and the friendship actually meant something.
Fictional characters survive because of authorial fiat.
PC's do not.
Therefore, PC's need something to compensate for the lack of authorial fiat protecting them, something to give them a fighting chance.
Something like useful abilities and characteristics as expressed in the game's mechanics.
ie Merry, Pippin, Xander, et al wouldn't be 1st level characters if translated into the D&D idiom.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
I've never done it myself, but seen it done in my groups several times. I despise it. I've never seen it be fun for anybody other than the player that's being deliberately useless. It gets on the other players nerves, and it is entirely unreasonable to expect them to keep dragging the incompetent along, endangering the lives of the other players, wasting their resources, taking shares of the xp/loot that they really don't deserve, etc.
A character sould be useful for -something- that commonly comes up and is valuable in the game. In D&D that means it needs to be able to meaningfully contribute to combat. In other games, combat contribtion probably isn't neccessary, but they should still be contributing something.
If you -really- want to play a pathetic character, make a good character and reflavor all of his bonuses to dumb luck or whatever. That way you get the joy of being comic relief, without dragging down your group's capability to get stuff done.
I've never played a pathetic character in a tabletop game.
But, after playing various LARP games over the years I've found pathetic PCs to be a perfect fit for the genre. My impression about LARPs is that they're in many ways the opposite of a traditional tabletop RPG game. There are only a handful of PCs in a tabletop game; they are the heroes of the setting and each has an opportunity to shine in that role. In a LARP game however, often with 10, 20 or even 50 or 60 PCs, heroic beings are the norm in the setting rather than the exception. In essence, with everyone trying to be the best and most powerful the only way to stand out in a LARP is to be pathetic.
At least, that's my theory and I've put it into practice in numerous LARPs and have found it to be the key to enjoying myself. My most pathetic character was in a D&Desque LARP in which I played an utterly harmless, pacifistic, mentally-retarded, disfigured, hunchback beggar named Awd Goggie with a severe speech impediment and no sense of pride. His only saving grace was that he was a top shelf healer who'd happily patch up anyone in distress, even injured NPC monsters! His only possessions were a walking staff and a wooden bowl which I'd use to either hide my disfigured face, bang on my head once I'd done something stupid or hold out to passersby to beg for alms. All in all the character was quite successful. Most heroic PCs went to great pains to protect my character from harm, while most villainous PCs wouldn't bother to attack since I was harmless, had nothing worth stealing and I'd heal them for free whenever asked. Some of the monsters even took to not molest me for similar reasons. And, by the end I'd accumulated much more wealth through begging than anyone else had by adventuring!
I've played other pathetic or purposefully weak characters in LARPs since then: a clueless 15th generation caitiff, a ghoul and a gargoyle enslaved to a Tremere chantry in various Vampire LARPs. The latter was particularly fun when my vampiric masters took to using me interchangeably as a footstool or a coat rack.
Why would you risk your life adventuring with someone who was a liability?
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Originally Posted by Doug McCrae
That doesn't answer the question. Pickles JG is asking why the *other* PCs adventure with this person. Why don't they just kick him out the party?
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Originally Posted by Lurks-no-More
I have never intentionally made a "pathetic" character. Flawed characters can be great fun, but lousy ones - especially in a game as team-oriented as D&D has always been - are, well, lousy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mallus
Fictional characters survive because of authorial fiat.
PC's do not.
Therefore, PC's need something to compensate for the lack of authorial fiat protecting them, something to give them a fighting chance.
Something like useful abilities and characteristics as expressed in the game's mechanics.
ie Merry, Pippin, Xander, et al wouldn't be 1st level characters if translated into the D&D idiom.
ok, well I have played weak, or flawed characters I never played a real loser...I once had a concept for one (classic geeky nerd low con, low str, low cha) but my dice gave me a low stat of 14... and 2 17's...
how ever I do want to say I ran a game that for ha ha;s we ruled was 3d6 place as you get them (in 3.5)
We had Bane (moonbeam) the half drow barbarian/ranger/fighter raised by a hippy druid...he had a good str and con, but a 10 dex, a 7 Int and a 6 cha...
we had a wizard (man his name escapes me) human with an 14 Int, 13 Wis, 13 Cha, and no physical stat above 9
We had a monk with 2 18's Dex and Wis...but a 3 str...
We had a cleric with straight 13's...no really 6 13;s in a row...
and then we had azrethal...human agjur with ok physicals 11-13's, an 18 Int, and 18 Wis and a 17 cha...
we techincly had a rogue too, but he had a 3 con, and a 4 str...he didn't last long...
You know who we talk about to this day...bane. The best character out of them...
__________________
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
I've played two characters who could qualify as losers... though neither one really was.
The first was Lester Shillings, a sorcerer/rogue of a pirate who wielded dual short swords. His overall stat bonus was a +1. Over the course of the three or so games we played, he rolled a whole lot of crits, and lucked out with the dice time and time again. I wasn't playing him flawed, but his stats did not back up his swagger. His dice did.
The second was my only deliberate attempt to make a loser character, and it was a blast. Provalor the Proficient was a fat halfling wizard whose whole goal in life was to get rich and be comfortable. He specialized in illusion, and had dropped the evocation school of magic. He carried a chair with him at all times, and had other people carry him whenever he could convince them to.
I have to say, though, evocation was a pain to lose. It's fine to lose the blasting spells, but you also lose all the light spells... I mean, you'd think an illusionist could conjure some form of light better than dancing light...
__________________ 4th Ed Chars Fallen:
Spoiler:
Gavin Ward - Male Human Warlord 1 - The party started a bar fight. The fellow who escaped brought his bandit buddies back and they killed Gavin (and nearly three other party members). He bled out while lying on the floor.
4th Ed Kills:
Spoiler:
Cornell Butterworth - Male Human Wizard 1 - Knocked unconscious by a kobold dragonshield the fighter ignored, then done in by the kobold wyrmpriest's acid breath.
Lithia - Female Elven Ranger 11 - Contracted mummy rot, which eventually did her in.
Brendan Stetlan - Male Human Fighter 4 - Knocked unconscious in combat, then thrown to the wolves.
Vindicator Mindartis Valenae - Eladrin Paladin 5 - Dropped by a githzerai monk (L6 elite), and killed when the rogue threw him off the balcony to try and get his body to safety.
Vongar - Male Dwarf Paladin 1 - Fell in battle after defeating Irontooth, but not his bodyguard.
Straef - Male Elf Ranger 1 - Fell in battle to Irontooth's Wyrmpriest.
"Play 'em as ya roll 'em" works better with the expectations brought to the table in old D&D, in which it is assumed that most characters -- regardless of stats -- are doomed to ignominious ends, and it's only after the fact that the "heroes of the story" stand out.
Traveller really capitalized on the concept that character generation was part of the game, with its essential "gambling" scheme (dare another term at risk of death, or stand pat?) and open invitation to build a biography out of the sequence of rolls. A pregen (or point-bought) character so obviously lacks the fruits of that experience of process that it feels like a rip-off to me.
One of my first few characters ended up with an amazing Gunner-6, but knew toss-all otherwise. Did that (and the dice-tossing process of arriving at that) affect how I played him? You betcha.
When some punk with poor prospects manages to reach 3rd level with but 4 hit points, the accomplishment is even more exceptional than the challenge. Heroism is established, and if he dies before completing the quest to get more hp, his name is no less legend.
Last edited by Ariosto; 3rd July 2009 at 11:16 AM..
I had one character for the RPGA (known for having some tough games) that I intentionally created as a design challenge to see if I can make a "weak" character effective in 3.5e.
I created a single-classed melee bard.
I played him all the way up to 13th level before the campaign ended. He was my first melee character (I've always played casters) and getting used to the dynamics of a melee striker type took some getting used to, but by my mid-levels, I actually heard another player say "bards are broken" during a convention, after he saw my bard effectively act as healer, tank buffer, and striker for a 4 man party.
Currently, in 4e I'm playing a Dwarf Sorcerer and a Melee Gnome Ranger, neither of which have racial ability modifiers that are appropriate for a sorcerer and ranger respectively, mainly to show that optimization isn't really necessary in 4e.
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In terms of the "clumsy fighter", I actually played out completely unintentionally.
Basically it was 2e, the first D&D game I ever played (that led to it's own fun ... the smile on the DM's face when no one even THOUGHT about keeping watch the first night, lol).
I was an elf who was a fight theif. My strength and dexterity were 18's [forget the percentile for the strength, but it was pretty high]. My one liability was a very low wisdom. This became an issue as I stumbled upon an intelligent artifact that would only be usable by me. It was a +5 longsword called Screamer ... that didn't want to fight. So, to MAKE it fight, I had to roll under my wisdom. As a result, I would often be tossing my sword away in the middle of fights.
On top of that, I managed to charge into the mouth of a dinosaur AND have a giant fall on me after chopping one of his legs off, amongst other non-Screamer related clumsiness.
On top of that, my elf who was very distrusting of humans was able to get a few close human friends .... who all met untimely ends. His first friend was an mage ... who lost an arm to some undead. The second was a ranger, beaten to death by a stone golem. He even encountered a paladin who helped save his life with a timely lay on hands ... only to be IMMEDIATELY captured and killed by harpies. The guy had a pretty traumatic life.
I've had a few "weak willed" characters [and they've often been in possession of an item that influences them as a result], and I had a very fun "moron" character as an Orc Crusader (who was suprisingly charismatic for a orc ... albeit dumb as a post and extremely naive).
Presumably, no one would want to adventure with someone that isn't good at anything, but huge gaping flaws can be overlooked as long as they still have something to contribute.
I had a friend who would play characters that were massive liabilities, and it had nothing to do with stats ... he was just the kind of guy that HAS to pull just one more card out of the deck (of many things ... or any other really). One confrontation with a thieves guild as we were passing through town ended up with us summoning a vampire lord AND a beholder. As we were running away, he actually wanted to look back to see what was happening. While he didn't get killed by their gaze attacks, there were many a side quest involved in getting him out of trouble ...
Do you pick your friends based on their skillsets? Yes, I know you aren't an adventurer, but do remember that the typical D&D adventuring party has each other, and that's it. No other friends, nobody else to be with.
No, but I pick my co-workers that way.
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
"Art is the demonstration that the ordinary is extraordinary." - Amedee Ozenfant, Foundations of Modern Art
"I already have a place where I can get little recognition for my accomplishments, advance at a very slow pace, and have to work hard to eke out minimum rewards for my efforts. It's called work." - toberane.
He was one of the few characters that never died or got so wounded that they had to be replaced, even after he managed to stab himself in the leg with a machete.
For a throwaway character he certainly had the devil's luck.
So, to use a medical metaphor, he was a carrier of death and destruction, rather than suffering from the condition himself?
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
"Art is the demonstration that the ordinary is extraordinary." - Amedee Ozenfant, Foundations of Modern Art
"I already have a place where I can get little recognition for my accomplishments, advance at a very slow pace, and have to work hard to eke out minimum rewards for my efforts. It's called work." - toberane.
So, to use a medical metaphor, he was a carrier of death and destruction, rather than suffering from the condition himself?
You'd think, but he never actually contributed to the other deaths, unless he was some sort of bad luck charm, in which case he caused a LOT of deaths.
Three deaths by dropped grenade, two crippling maulings by zombies, IIRC three deaths by gunshot, one death by automobile, one actual death by zombies... It was a large group, but I was somehow one of only two people who played the same character all the way through. I still don't know how the hell.
Back in the 90's when I was still in high school and had infinite time on my hands it was almost a hobby of mine to roll characters. I'd use the method of rolling 4d6, keeping 3, 6 times and then arranging the stats. Whatever I rolled I'd keep and try create a character out of it, along with a back story. I created many "losers" this way, but they always had the best back stories. Very few of them got played as PC's, but as I mostly played DM they all saw light of day as NPCs and were great fun to role play.
Frankly, I don't know why people are opposed to playing flawed characters. The bulk of the more interesting characters in literature have some really big problems.
Just off the top of my head:
Cohen the Barbarian (from Terry Pratchett's Discworld Series): Old as the hills, has no teeth.
Rincewind (also from Terry Pratchett's Discworld Series): Wizard who can't cast a single spell. Completely useless in almost everything except running away.
Quasimodo (From the Hunchback of Notre Dame): Hunchback, terribly deformed and grotesque.
Long John Silver (From Treasure Island): Missing a whole leg.
Professor X (From X-Men): Wheelchair bound.
Prince Nicholas Con Doin (From Raymond E.Feist's Riftwar Series): Clubfoot (though this was later cured)
Pug (From Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar Series) In the first half of Magician he's the world's most incompetent magical talent. Only manages to cast spells when under incredible duress.
it's usually best when a low score is compensated by another a highscore. Imagine a Stephen Hawking wizard?
Frankly, I don't know why people are opposed to playing flawed characters. The bulk of the more interesting characters in literature have some really big problems.
Yes, but RPGs are not fiction. Many things which work quite well in fiction (like "loser" characters, major discrepancies in skill and usefulness between characters, splitting the party) are much more problematic in the context of a RPG session / campaign.
__________________
Cannon is a big gun. Canon is the accumulated official setting material.
"The only thing more cliched and annoying than fanboy elf-love is fanboy elf-hate."
I agree that designing a D&D character that is unable to contribute to an adventuring party is a bad idea. There's simply no need for that. A PC can be unheroic, comedic, even various kinds of pathetic, and still perform a valuable game function.
This.
I think the "My character must be completely useless in order to be fun to roleplay" position is a fallacy. The game must be fun to play for everyone involved, and this includes both the "roleplaying" and the "game" portions of an RPG
If you are playing with me and you want to play a cowardly, comic-relief kind of character, I would very much rather ask you to play a Bilbo Baggins, Neville Longbottom, Ciaphas Cain, Crouching-Moron-Hidden-Badass, Cowardly Lion type of character, than someone who really is useless all the time.
Luckily, my current game of choice (D&D 4E) makes it kinda hard to make a "completely useless" kind of character...
__________________ "I am King of the Romans and above the rules of grammar!" - Sigismund, Roman Emperor and my new hero
"Craft and profession skills are a tax on people who believe characterization and back-story are important." - Obryn
"Another thing to keep in mind is that the typical D&D party is to medieval armies what the A-team is to modern police." - Eamon
"I realize falling isn't specifically a push, pull, or slide, but I'd heavily argue that gravity is forced movement." - Old Gumphrey
... he was just the kind of guy that HAS to pull just one more card out of the deck (of many things ... or any other really). One confrontation with a thieves guild as we were passing through town ended up with us summoning a vampire lord AND a beholder. As we were running away, he actually wanted to look back to see what was happening. While he didn't get killed by their gaze attacks, there were many a side quest involved in getting him out of trouble ...
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