General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
What generation would that be? I got started with D&D using the Red Box Basic, and I have been led to believe that scores and scores of other gamers did so as well, which would mean that for my generation, the Red Box Basic is the de facto D&D. And I'm not sure that has a clone yet.
I'm 40, by the way.
/M
__________________ iAltdorf. An interactive map of the capital of the Empire in WFRP! Download today! Can be used in any fantasy campaign!
http://altdorfer.blogspot.com - Check out the Altdorf Correspondent! A WFRP blog about life in the Imperial capital.
"All editions of D&D are awesome." - Fifth Element (EN World Forums, 2008)
”The tendency to confuse personal taste with objective quality is nearly universal.” - Robin D. Laws – Robin’s Laws of Good Gamemastering (Steve Jackson Games, 2002)
Basic Fantasy (BFRPG) is pretty much the B/X clone, IIRC.
-O
BFRPG is more "inspired by" B/X than a clone of it. There are significant differences between BFRPG and B/X. The most notable is probably that BFRPG uses split races and classes AD&D style. Labyrinth Lord is more of a true clone of the B/X & BECMI games.
When I woke this morning I had a thought, I (and I think most people from my generation) always considered 1E AD&D the "base game" on which everything else was built (the defacto D&D) and measured. Yes, OD&D existed, but it was pretty loose, not complete enough. 1E nailed Gygax's vision, OD&D not really. 3E and 4E are too far removed to hold the defacto title. LL and S&W are likewise too loose and too unique (with strong brands). As I see it, OSRIC is going to be the in print standard by which all other versions of D&D (and clones, such as S&W, LL and C&C will be measured (the out of print will always be 1E of course). OSRIC's growth will undoubtedly be increasing in the future, but I wonder if anyone will notice. Off to work, I'll post more tonight.
I agree it is the defacto 1E D&D. IE its in print, its usable to allow more 1E AD&D products to be published, and it can even be used to play AD&D.
Don't know if I would call it the defacto D&D across the board, like Aus Snow said that is very personal. For instance Castles and Crusades is my defacto D&D.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Treebore, I didn't mean to say 1E AD&D was a better system then C&C, to each their own. 1E AD&D just seems like the system people (my age) go to first when trying to describe what the version or game they are playing is like (at least amongst the old timers I know) thus the default. Its old enough to be a root (and was the first break out version with the most players), but complete enough to offer points of comparison (where OD&D seemed so basic leaving stuff up to the DM and allowing max variation between tables, it has fewer points of comparison, and even those points wouldn't be legit as the DM was supposed to have a more flexible system to mold).
I remember explaining 3E when it came out in terms of how it was similar and different to 1E (not OD&D). I did the same with C&C. I think this was because around here most know the 1E system (not so much OD&D, or if they did it was heavily home brewed). I also picture the development of the FRPG industry like a tree, and 1E (having been the most popular, first, and most complete at the time) is its massive trunk from which everything grew out in all sorts of directions...4E its latest (OD&D and Chainmail its roots).
I only mention OSRIC because its in print at lulu, is already widely distributed and its 1E. It has nothing to do with numbers of sales or its placement in stores.
Last edited by nightraven; 3rd July 2009 at 06:58 AM..
One factor in the "graying" of our hobby is that D&D has had a notable ability to enchant lifelong devotees -- so that the demographic skews older even with a constant influx of younger participants. For a significant segment, 1E AD&D is indeed archetypal, and even people who have mainly played 2E may see the differences as negligible.
The rapid acquisition of "brand recognition" by OSRIC accounts, I suspect, for the retention of the otherwise cryptic name rather than replacement with something "sexier". It quickly became evident that the project was finding utility beyond its conceptual mission of facilitating commercial publication of AD&D-compatible modules and other products.
Interestingly, I don't think there is any provision to prevent (e.g.) Wizards of the Coast from publishing an edition and raking in whatever profits might thereby accrue. In that respect, it's analogous to Linux -- which cannot have been too far from the minds of Ryan Dancey, et al, when promulgating the OGL.
It is pretty nifty that one can download the rule book for free, and be thereby equipped to understand the intent of something written in those terms -- and so to translate them into whatever other game system one may prefer.
That "lingua Franca" aspect is something I recall fondly from the days when nearly every RPGer was familiar with D&D in one recension or another -- and the differences among editions were pretty negligible.
I could take a concept created for a campaign of RuneQuest, Traveller, or whatever, and write it up in D&D lingo to share with gamers all over the world. That was pretty cool, and it would be pretty cool if things were to become so again.
Last edited by Ariosto; 3rd July 2009 at 07:09 AM..
I only mention OSRIC because its in print at lulu, is already widely distributed and its 1E.
It is distributed. I think the characterization of "widely" is debatable, though. I haven't ever seen a hard copy of OSRIC in a book store or game shop, nor have I seen it for sale in that format through any online outlet other than Lulu. Until it's commonly available in hard copy format at game stores, book shops, and online retailers the world over, I don't think it's actually "widely" distributed.
By widely I mean its free PDF (OSRIC 1 has been out now for years, combined with OSRIC 2 its gotta be on ALOT of hard drives. How many have looked at it? Anyones guess.) Yep, the book isn't in book stores just Lulu. Lets hope that changes.
We're dealing with a business in which a mass-market "gateway" product has not been available since whenever the supply of Mentzer BECMI boxed sets dried up.
OSRIC is so far strictly in the hands of hobbyists, which is just where D&D started. Gary did not quit being a cobbler upon its publication, because he had a family to feed.
It took a while to build up to Basic Sets at Toys R Us and Sears -- and WotC, with all its resources, has yet to return to that saturation. What are we to expect of fans working not on a basis of profit but on one effectively of charity?
Time shall tell what becomes of this renaissance, but let us not draw invidious comparisons.
I got my 1E PHB at a local stationery and housewares shop of long repute, finding it next to the crystal and porcelain. I picked my (dearly missed) RuneQuest hardbound from the shelf of a franchise of a huge national bookstore chain.
There is perhaps a natural cycle here. When TSR launched, Avalon Hill and SPI were already slipping into dependence on an established, "hardcore" market. SPI in particular did a lot of market research (otherwise really unprecedented before WotC) -- but it was self-selected by/for Strategy & Tactics subscribers.
The "old-school renaissance" has no such sure stable of cows to milk. It depends on outreach. Moreover, it has no expectation of meeting -- much less of exceeding -- a competitive return on investment.
Neither, in financial terms, had the purveyors of "pirate" D&D texts who helped spread the game by word of mouth while TSR was unable to meet demand.
An old order gets flabby and a new, leaner and more creative, one steps in to fill the niche. This is an old story. What is interesting is that in this case, today's "young Turks" are identified with yesterday's "old Turks".
But who would have thought that it would be not Apple or IBM, or even Microsoft, that captured so much of the Internet server market -- but rather a restatement by hobbyists of clunky old Unix?
OSRIC is so far strictly in the hands of hobbyists, which is just where D&D started. Gary did not quit being a cobbler upon its publication, because he had a family to feed.
I think there are a few key differences.
First, remember Gary was an insurance agent. He became a cobbler to make ends meet for his family because he was investing his life and time into the game. By taking that act, Gary crossed over from a hobbyist to an entrepreneur. He DID quit his job.
People today forget the fact that TSR got as big as it did because of the investments of time, capital, and sweat. The fans alone did not grow D&D. They are a big part of it, but as they grew in size TSR had the capacity to find more ways to distribute the game to the masses--getting bookstore deals, finding better artists and production values and they got more money, etc. Gary (and some of the other early writers) also had a sort of charismatic thing going in his writing that affected fans. And it also hit a cultural zeitgeist that has yet to be repeated.
I don't believe the old school gaming movement, while being significant, is going to be very big. Even if it follows open source philosophy, it's already fractured. Technically, there are already half a dozen clones or variants of the core D&D/AD&D base. And the business factor is a big key to growing things--most of the arguments to put OSRIC in bookstores feel more like "religious advocacy" perspectives.
Right now I think the old school movement is rising because of two things--gamers who were teens or pre-teens during the rise of D&D reaching middle age, and the fact that WoTC really went a too radical with their new version of D&D. (I'm really surprised WoTC hasn't decided to go after this market--although whether they are qualified to do so is another question, a lot of the staff old-schoolers trust have scattered to the four winds).
__________________
Forum FYI:
Kask is not the famous Tim Kask of the early days of TSR
I am that weird guy you see buried deep down in the credits section on many of EGGs later products.
Last edited by JohnRTroy; 3rd July 2009 at 01:54 PM..
Right now I think the old school movement is rising because of two things--gamers who were teens or pre-teens during the rise of D&D reaching middle age, and the fact that WoTC really went a too radical with their new version of D&D.
This really describes me.. I left 2E (and gaming) when I went to school and during the early years of my career. Now that things have settled down a bit, I'm getting back in... But the new edition doesn't really feel the same to me, so I'm turning back to older editions of my youth. Part of it is that I like the pulpy, 70s feel over the slick high fantasy feel, part of it is nostalgia and love for the rules (warts and all) that gave me the great memories.
The new rules and feel aren't necessarily bad - they just don't suit my needs.
I certainly do not mean to suggest that fan effort is likely to have results on par with a well capitalized one! I tried to suggest just the opposite, arguing against what seem to me invidious comparisons, but I think I got a bit muddled.
At this point, I don't see OSRIC as very much distinct from AD&D. That for some people it is taking the place of the old books has been recognized. My guess (which is just that) is that so far the "default" status of AD&D/OSRIC -- which I am identifying with each other -- remains primarily in the same demographic as before.
I doubt very much that it is likely in the next few years to attract a number of players at all comparable to 3E or 4E. What might happen in the long term seems vain speculation.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
