General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
When I woke this morning I had a thought, I (and I think most people from my generation) always considered 1E AD&D the "base game" on which everything else was built (the defacto D&D) and measured. Yes, OD&D existed, but it was pretty loose, not complete enough. 1E nailed Gygax's vision, OD&D not really. 3E and 4E are too far removed to hold the defacto title. LL and S&W are likewise too loose and too unique (with strong brands). As I see it, OSRIC is going to be the in print standard by which all other versions of D&D (and clones, such as S&W, LL and C&C will be measured (the out of print will always be 1E of course). OSRIC's growth will undoubtedly be increasing in the future, but I wonder if anyone will notice. Off to work, I'll post more tonight.
I think you may have a point. As the retro-clone of the most popular iteration of D&D, and being very well done, OSRIC has a strong brand. On the other hand, it's the most complex of the retro-clones - BFRPG, Swords & Wizadry, and Labyrinth Lord are significantly more rules-light.
When I woke this morning I had a thought, I (and I think most people from my generation) always considered 1E AD&D the "base game" on which everything else was built (the defacto D&D) and measured. Yes, OD&D existed, but it was pretty loose, not complete enough. 1E nailed Gygax's vision, OD&D not really. 3E and 4E are too far removed to hold the defacto title. LL and S&W are likewise too loose and too unique (with strong brands). As I see it, OSRIC is going to be the in print standard by which all other versions of D&D (and clones, such as S&W, LL and C&C will be measured (the out of print will always be 1E of course). OSRIC's growth will undoubtedly be increasing in the future, but I wonder if anyone will notice. Off to work, I'll post more tonight.
1e is the defacto version of the game? Don't see it. Is Gary quoted somewhere stating 1e "nailed" his vision? Does it matter?
Is 1e D&D? Yes. Is OSRIC D&D? Yes (not by brand of course). Is 1e somehow more D&D than 2e, 3e, or 4e? No. Not by any standards other than personal, individual ones.
If 1e and/or OSRIC is your favorite version of the game and what you play mostly, that's cool. But to try and elevate it to the holy grail of D&D games for the rest of us, that's a fantasy of a different sort.
__________________ Brian Zuber
Proud Member of ENWorld since 2000 (under several lost screen names). Gaming since the mid-80s!
Favorite Settings: Love all of the official settings, Mystara is my nostalgia fave! Trying to create a homebrew that blends the best elements of the various settings. Favorite Edition: Can't decide between 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, like them both!
I think you may have a point. As the retro-clone of the most popular iteration of D&D, and being very well done, OSRIC has a strong brand. On the other hand, it's the most complex of the retro-clones - BFRPG, Swords & Wizadry, and Labyrinth Lord are significantly more rules-light.
I've heard good things about OSRIC, but "strong brand" is pretty relative. Within the nichey niche world of D&D clones, I would say so. But outside of that, no, not really.
Walk into your average FLGS and start asking for the OSRIC section or ask if anyone wants to start up a game using the OSRIC ruleset, and you'll most likely get a lot of blank stares.
__________________ Brian Zuber
Proud Member of ENWorld since 2000 (under several lost screen names). Gaming since the mid-80s!
Favorite Settings: Love all of the official settings, Mystara is my nostalgia fave! Trying to create a homebrew that blends the best elements of the various settings. Favorite Edition: Can't decide between 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, like them both!
Walk into your average FLGS and start asking for the OSRIC section or ask if anyone wants to start up a game using the OSRIC ruleset, and you'll most likely get a lot of blank stares.
My LGS certainly did stock OSRIC scenarios, although Castles & Crusades has a lot more shelf space. But I meant strong among the retro-clones, yes.
1e is the defacto version of the game? Don't see it. Is Gary quoted somewhere stating 1e "nailed" his vision? Does it matter?
Is 1e D&D? Yes. Is OSRIC D&D? Yes (not by brand of course). Is 1e somehow more D&D than 2e, 3e, or 4e? No. Not by any standards other than personal, individual ones.
If 1e and/or OSRIC is your favorite version of the game and what you play mostly, that's cool. But to try and elevate it to the holy grail of D&D games for the rest of us, that's a fantasy of a different sort.
This sums it up nicely. XP for you.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
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I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
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As I see it, OSRIC is going to be the in print standard by which all other versions of D&D (and clones, such as S&W, LL and C&C will be measured (the out of print will always be 1E of course). OSRIC's growth will undoubtedly be increasing in the future, but I wonder if anyone will notice.
I'm going to guess that the rpg community at large will not notice. At one time, 1e was the most popular version of D&D around, but it has been decades since that was the case. The community has largely moved on to other things.
Most of them probably won't acquire OSRIC in print version, much less play it or use it as a standard by which they measure others.
Which is a little like saying "He's strong, for someone raised on the Moon. Compared to other Moon-men he's strong".
I think of AD&D as the "base game" too, but for no other reason than it's edition I began playing. As for OSRIC and the retro-clones (now there's a nerd-rock band name), while I really like how they hearken back to the early days of gaming as a cottage industry and I'm glad they're being developed by fans with a lot of energy, enthusiasm, and talent, they're going to be a blip in the RPG market, nothing more.
They can certainly set a high standard for a new generation of RPG-related cottage industry products. But the idea one of the them is going to emerge as the overall brand standard is wishful (magical?) thinking.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
When I woke this morning I had a thought, I (and I think most people from my generation) always considered 1E AD&D the "base game" on which everything else was built (the defacto D&D) and measured. Yes, OD&D existed, but it was pretty loose, not complete enough. 1E nailed Gygax's vision, OD&D not really. 3E and 4E are too far removed to hold the defacto title. LL and S&W are likewise too loose and too unique (with strong brands). As I see it, OSRIC is going to be the in print standard by which all other versions of D&D (and clones, such as S&W, LL and C&C will be measured (the out of print will always be 1E of course). OSRIC's growth will undoubtedly be increasing in the future, but I wonder if anyone will notice. Off to work, I'll post more tonight.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: I can't foresee any of the clones (including C&C & Pathfinder) actually overtaking the current iteration of D&D in popularity. D&D has the brand-name, has a giant company to handle distribution and development (something, bless their souls, none of those companies begin to match) and there is a significant population of the game that left 1e long ago and (barring a few rediscovereries) have no desire to go back. That's not to say these games aren't good, or have an audience, but I don't forsee OSRIC becoming "delfacto" anything except a nice SRD-like version of AD&D 1e that people will use with their old school games.
Long answer: I can't foresee any of the clones (including C&C & Pathfinder) actually overtaking the current iteration of D&D in popularity. D&D has the brand-name, has a giant company to handle distribution and development (something, bless their souls, none of those companies begin to match) and there is a significant population of the game that left 1e long ago and (barring a few rediscovereries) have no desire to go back. That's not to say these games aren't good, or have an audience, but I don't forsee OSRIC becoming "delfacto" anything except a nice SRD-like version of AD&D 1e that people will use with their old school games.
When I woke this morning I had a thought, I (and I think most people from my generation) always considered 1E AD&D the "base game" on which everything else was built (the defacto D&D) and measured. Yes, OD&D existed, but it was pretty loose, not complete enough. 1E nailed Gygax's vision, OD&D not really. 3E and 4E are too far removed to hold the defacto title. LL and S&W are likewise too loose and too unique (with strong brands). As I see it, OSRIC is going to be the in print standard by which all other versions of D&D (and clones, such as S&W, LL and C&C will be measured (the out of print will always be 1E of course). OSRIC's growth will undoubtedly be increasing in the future, but I wonder if anyone will notice. Off to work, I'll post more tonight.
The constant need to compare and measure this edition to that is one of the biggest problems D&D fandom has. I´m glad that its much diminished in other RPGs i play, and would not shed a tear if it went away.
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It seems unlikely. But I suppose anything is possible.
In my opinion, AD&D was (and is) not the "base game" (etc.) you referred to. That would have to be OD&D, of course. Well, to be fair, IMO.
I agree. I don't think OSRIC has become that defacto title yet simply because of recognition. As an anecdotal example, if I were to go to my players on my Saturday game and say, "AD&D 1e" or "OD&D", they will say, "What about it? You want to play a game or two for old times sake?". If I were to say, "OSRIC", they will say, "What's that?"
When non-EN Worlders and non-D&D gamers understand and recognize OSRIC for what it is, then I think it's a step closer.
Is 1e D&D? Yes. Is OSRIC D&D? Yes (not by brand of course). Is 1e somehow more D&D than 2e, 3e, or 4e? No. Not by any standards other than personal, individual ones.
You know, when I read this my thought was that if this is true regarding 1E and OSRIC then it is equally true regarding 4E - and that really doesn't say good things for WotC who must cringe with every post that disses 4E or promotes any other version.
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To me, given my gaming personal history, yeah, 1e is "D&D" and OSRIC (which I have downloaded) is the current version.
The only other justification I would apply, that's not rooted in my own personal experiences, is that I guess that 1e was played by the most people and was the version of the game when Dungeons and Dragons went mass-market and really got into the public consciousness (if only because it makes us into suicidal Satanists. Oh, and the horrendous cartoon).
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Gary himself had pretty much abandoned AD&D in his latter days and often referred to the original brown books (sans supplements) as his fave version and all he would run.
For my own tastes and having started with them and then just mishmashing AD&D onto it, I'd say the LBBs with supplements is the true base. AD&D is basically all the LBBs with added complication and codification (needless, IMO). Even into 1982 I still did the same thing- pulling bits from AD&D and using the original rules (at that time MoldvayCookMarsh B/X) as the base. While AD&D was a great read, I think the original game (in either incarnation) is D&D at it's purest essence, so to speak.
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I think people sometimes get too fixated about what's "official" to see what they could do with the whole- "David "Zeb" Cook
In my FLGS there are Castles and Crusades books, 1st ed AD&D books, and 2nd ed AD&D books. It carries a lot of indie stuff too. But 4e and 3e dominate the shelf space for the D&D lines.
There are some adventures that are C&C based. I don't see any OSRIC stuff there. I certainly didn't see the OSRIC ruleset there.
I think that the trouble is that many people have never heard of OSRIC, and those that have, have done so via internet, where they can get a free pdf of it. So the market for buying it is those that want a dead tree version of it, specifically. But 2nd hand 1st ed. books will usually be cheaper, dead tree to dead tree wise.
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