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Hmm... a paladin never really did need Wisdom did they... I never realised that until this thread. It's just a holdover.
So basing the class around Strength, Constitution and Charisma could work nicely.
And as for a 'handful of points' not mattering at 1st-level... are you insane? Toughness is one of the best feats in the game and having a few extra points from Con can (and has in many games I've run or played in) mean the difference between success and failure of an encounter (when the character is a defender).
IMO the biggest weakness of the paladin is that it really doesn't represent the paladin of previous editions, ie. the strong, tough, knight in shining armour who smites evil things, turns undead and heals.
Although I daresay others may disagree, I find that the Avenger does everything that I want of my 'paladin' class in many ways.
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Hmm... a paladin never really did need Wisdom did they... I never realised that until this thread. It's just a holdover.
So basing the class around Strength, Constitution and Charisma could work nicely.
.
Actually, I was SLIGHTLY mistaken about Wisdom. Although the paladin didn't need a high WISDOM to cast spells, they followed all the rules for divine spells and as such, suffered a 5% miscast chance at a 12 WIS and increasingly 5% per point under 12.
So a paladin actually needed a 13 WIS just to have a 0% chance of not miscasting a spell since a 9 wisdom for example would incur a 20% penalty....
Yes it does - you can use it Wisdom modifier times per day (minimum 1), like lay on hands.
Not really. How many times would you really need to end stun, daze, or blind each day? Most of the time they are "until end/start of next turn" or (save ends), so you'll rarely need to use it more that 3 times a day (WIS 16) outside of an solo/BBEG/plot fight. Chances are you'll be using it just because you have it not because you need to break an effect.
Unlike LOH where you might want a lot of those since your paladin never gets hit.
Contagious Challenge
Prereqs: Divine challenge
Benefit: Place divine sanction on enemy adjacent to target you have challenged
While I looked over the description of Divine Challenge and it never used the word "Divine Sanction" anywhere, it looks like sanction is definitely related to Divine Challenge. It's very likely they will redefine Divine Challenge to include the usage of the new term Sanction.
Two pages of comments, and how many are actually about the article?
Few.
I think I'll actually comment on the powers presented here.
Virture's Touch is OK. It's not as all around useful as Lay on Hands, but could still have it's uses.
Majestic Halo is pretty nice, actually. I'm definitely in favor of a power that auto-marks with what sounds like Divine Challenge, so that way I don't have to waste actions on it. It also sounds like I can Challenge-and-Forget with this power, because it never stops working.
Failure is No Option sounds like something I'd use against a Controller-type creature to get a few attacks in before they start moving my group around again. I like the idea, and find this power preferable to a lot of things already in the paladin class.
Name of Awe. This power just rocks, and that's all there is to it.
If these are just a few examples of the powers present in Divine Power, count me in!
As for the convo at hand.... I think Wizards intended something of a split stat affair, (one stat at 16 the other at 18), but nothing where it was dead even. One or the other is appropriate, and I think we'll finally get the class to being barely playable as of this source book.
Then again, I like what they did to the Warlock class as well.
Actually, I was SLIGHTLY mistaken about Wisdom. Although the paladin didn't need a high WISDOM to cast spells, they followed all the rules for divine spells and as such, suffered a 5% miscast chance at a 12 WIS and increasingly 5% per point under 12.
So a paladin actually needed a 13 WIS just to have a 0% chance of not miscasting a spell since a 9 wisdom for example would incur a 20% penalty....
Of course, Paladin and Ranger spellcasting was one of the most frequently ignored abilities in the game...
I'm not so sure about that. I recall in both the Paladin and Cleric build descriptions from the PHB1 they said take one stat the highest, and then take the other attack stat second highest since "you'll still want some powers" from the other build.
They say that about every class. Its their rote advice on character building- your attack stat goes first, the secondary stat from your build goes second, and then whatever stat that's important to the build that you are not goes third. This is almost always bad advice (sometimes its worse than others, eg, Paladin, Cleric, and Shaman), but they say it in every single class description in the entire game.
As for Melee Training, the strength Paladin just gets a different feat. Maybe he gets to tool around with a Fullblade while the charisma paladin is using a military weapon. Or Toughness. Or some snazzy new feat from Divine Power that boosts your divine challenge. I think it evens out.
I'm looking forward to seeing what's in the ardent build. As a paladin I do want to protect my mates, but just as well I want to be running around in full plate kicking butt and shouting, "I say thee nay!"
I usually DM, but have been getting my hands dirty as a player lately and trying out the paladin. As others have said, multiple scores are important to the pally... unless you want to just forget about certain abilities and go all strength or all charisma.
That seemed a suboptimal choice to me--I want options--so I ended up with 15's in Str, Con, Wis, and Cha (I'm human), and I'm waiting for that magical level 4 when two of those will pop (I've decided Str and Cha).
I do get envious of the rogues in the party, though. They max out their Dex scores, have excellent attack bonuses, and scoop out the damage. To be the best pally I can be, I favor the broad approach.
After looking at the virtuous paladin from the WotC article, I think the ardent will be more my style. But then there's the tedium of retraining every bloody power and feat to optimize that build, if I like it. It could take forever. :-/
I think people are seriously underestimating the power of virtuous touch. Its not about giving it to others, its about using it on yourself.
Paladins suffer the same problem all melee classes do...a lot of conditions effect them more than ranged ones. Dazed, slow, and immobilized are the three big ones. While they can be a problem for ranged characters, normally its not that bad. For melee characters, it can mean the complete shutdown of a turn.
A paladin can use his touch as a get out of jail free card, and still have a standard and move action left to go kick some butt.
And as for a 'handful of points' not mattering at 1st-level... are you insane? Toughness is one of the best feats in the game and having a few extra points from Con can (and has in many games I've run or played in) mean the difference between success and failure of an encounter (when the character is a defender).
Using that reasoning, all defenders are terminally MAD. If paladins can't dumpstat Constitution, then plainly fighters can even less afford to do so with one fewer surge as a base. Going from 10 Con to 14 Con costs a touch less than a quarter of your total stat points. While I don't think you're insane for doing so as a paladin, I do think such a move is by no means optimized, let alone mandatory.
I think the powers that we've been shown in this preview underline this. Paladins do seem to have a very substantial number of options for Weakening enemies, and Name of Awe is another one on the list. One can certainly afford to lose two healing surges if you've got tools like that to hand.
I do hope Divine Power has enough stuff in there to make the Paladin more accepted as a viable character build. I do find Virtue's touch ok since it does an automatic save instead of a roll with a bonus like the other class feature.
I personally would have wanted to incorporate just one main stat and secondary stats for different builds for the Paladin, but what do you do.
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I think people are seriously underestimating the power of virtuous touch. Its not about giving it to others, its about using it on yourself.
Paladins suffer the same problem all melee classes do...a lot of conditions effect them more than ranged ones. Dazed, slow, and immobilized are the three big ones. While they can be a problem for ranged characters, normally its not that bad. For melee characters, it can mean the complete shutdown of a turn.
A paladin can use his touch as a get out of jail free card, and still have a standard and move action left to go kick some butt.
Especially at higher level, where the amount of conditions that get pilled on you increase drastically.
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Although I daresay others may disagree, I find that the Avenger does everything that I want of my 'paladin' class in many ways.
I disagree.
(Well, technically, I don't disagree. I agree that you find the avenger does everything you want from a paladin. )
I really like the avenger, but to me, the paladin is the embodiment of the just and virtuous (or at least zealous, depending on alignment) knight in shining armor. A lightly armored, mobile striker cannot fill that role for me.
Unfortunately, while the paladin has been one of my three favorite classes in every prior edition, I'm not entirely happy with it in 4E. My hope, however, is that the upcoming "ardent" build fixes that. From what little we've heard, it sounds like it might.
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Just the fact that they are doing a new build for str and charisma means there will be multiple options at all levels that favor both classes. That alone means you can actually go with good STR/WIS/CON or CHA/CON/WIS as your best three stats. Your heavy shield (if you choose to use it) can help in your reflex department, and you are off to the races.
It will be interesting to see if they give the paladin a 'STR build' power to replace/enhance/etc divine challenge.
What I'm curious to know is assuming they do make a new paladin challenge that is based off of strength, are they planning to adjust the current challenge?
The current challenge is the worst of the defender's marks, even if you are a charisma based paladin.
They say that about every class. Its their rote advice on character building- your attack stat goes first, the secondary stat from your build goes second, and then whatever stat that's important to the build that you are not goes third. This is almost always bad advice (sometimes its worse than others, eg, Paladin, Cleric, and Shaman), but they say it in every single class description in the entire game.
Actually, according to the compendium, the Player's Handbook recommends: Str then Cha or Cha then Str for paladins, Con then Int or Cha then Int for warlocks, Str then Wis or Wis then Cha for clerics, and Dex then Str or Str then Dex for rangers. So of the eight builds total in the four classes that have multiple ability scores that govern attack powers, five of them (including both paladin and ranger builds) are recommended to pump the "other build's" ability score.
So it seems rather explicit to me that WotC expected players to pump Str and Cha for every paladin, never or rarely Wis or Con. Clearly you would tend to make Wis and Con scores higher than Int and Dex, but they assumed paladins would pump Str and Cha and therefore have a decent score even for the "other build's" attack powers.
Last edited by Pseudopsyche; 6th July 2009 at 11:05 PM..
Reason: clarifications
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