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Just a comparison between "big names" that have been given stats for 4E:
Forgotten Realms
Manshoon-level 28
Fzoul Chembryl-level 28
Szass Tam-level 30
Jarlaxle Baenre-level 21
Drizzt DoUrden-level 21(from sample character in DDI Character Builder
vs
Eberron
Lady Vol-level 19(from 4E ECG preview)
I know FR has had a hard on for Epic level NPCs for a long time now, but I find it interesting that Eberron places one of their "name" NPCs in the high Paragon tier instead. It does bear some discussing, as to the consequences of having as many epic level NPCs as FR does, and what it means for the setting.
Eberron has tons of epic NPCs. They are just horrid immortal monsters instead of wizards who forgot to die.
Being horrid immortal monsters means that they exist to be killed (presumably by PCs). I'm down with this. This is D&D to me. This does not seem to be the default assumption where many FR NPCs of vast power are concerned. If evil, many epic FR NPCs exist only to be killed by good epic FR NPCs as part of a novelized story arc. If good, many epic FR NPCs exist only to kill epic evil FR NPCs as previously described or, alternately, to dispense quests to PCs like some kind of fantasy social worker. I blame it on TSR and their push to canonize the novel lines. Feh.
Oh certainly i did not mean to compare function. Just noted that Eberron has a massive number of epic level threats, and dozens of unique high epic tier solos are possible. (I do wonder if anything will ever come close to the strength of Ioulaum though . . .)
Being horrid immortal monsters means that they exist to be killed (presumably by PCs). I'm down with this. This is D&D to me. This does not seem to be the default assumption where many FR NPCs of vast power are concerned. If evil, many epic FR NPCs exist only to be killed by good epic FR NPCs as part of a novelized story arc. If good, many epic FR NPCs exist only to kill epic evil FR NPCs as previously described or, alternately, to dispense quests to PCs like some kind of fantasy social worker. I blame it on TSR and their push to canonize the novel lines. Feh.
I again agree 100%, the defualt realms should have always been the novels are NOT canon...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug McCrae
Elminster is there to be killed. Like everything else in D&D.
In my view, it's the best way to play him.
man I wish I played in your group...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
Mordain the Fleshweaver was one of the few near Epic threats in Eberron; he's level 21 in Dragon 372. A certain important person Kaius III was also relatively high level; I expect them to be high paragon tier instead of Epic. As mentioned before, the Epic Threats tend to be really old (so old as to make Lady Vol seem young): Rakshasa fiends, Daelkyr masters, Dragon Sages, and, of course, the Overlords.
(This discounts Secrets of Argonessen, which had its own "Epic Level Town". While I understand what it was there, it just smells tacked-on to me. I.e., "We need a place for epic level PCs... okay, here we go...).
__________________ stonegod -- LEB judge and spawn of Khyber since 2005 (Blog)
Being horrid immortal monsters means that they exist to be killed (presumably by PCs). I'm down with this. This is D&D to me.
Unless they have changed this...most of the things he meant are out of the scoop of pc's to fight, and can not be killed permanent like by any means. Eberron had high level stuff by the plenty it just was not driven by the novles
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I know FR has had a hard on for Epic level NPCs for a long time now, but I find it interesting that Eberron places one of their "name" NPCs in the high Paragon tier instead. It does bear some discussing, as to the consequences of having as many epic level NPCs as FR does, and what it means for the setting.
Eberron was designed in 3e. I hope people recall how terrible the epic rules were in 3.x; level 19 is impressive in that setting.
Also, villains can gain levels. The Lord of Blades is "only" 12th level, but he can gain levels over time. (To make it possible to fight him, presumably he'd gain levlels more slowly than the PCs.)
And the epic town in Dragons of Eberron was imo the worst thing they ever did in Eberron and the one piece of lore I definitely would ignore. Sure make it a city of scholars with more high levels than elsewhere but that city reminded me of Union on a smaller scale and that is bad.
Yep, Epicville was horrible and won't ever exist in any game I run. Not that my games will ever venture to Argonessen anyway, but in the very unlikely case that my players decide to venture there and somehow survive, they won't find that city as it is written in the book.
Elminster is there to be killed. Like everything else in D&D.
In my view, it's the best way to play him.
You're joking, right? Styles and preferences vary, but I don't run my games with every being [with name, stats and level] existing to be killed by the PCs. I like having high-level NPCs that are beyond the abilities of PCs (and other NPCs) to kill; if it were so easy, you'd think the beings such as Lords of Dust would have been dead long ago. Limiting all the NPCs to Paragon tier does not actually evoke the feeling of thousands of years of history and a world that has seen epic heroes, at least not in me -- especially if PCs can surpass (supposedly powerful) NPCs like Lady Vol or Mordain in a few months of adventure (in game time) during which they transform from fledgling heroes to demigods. Even though the PCs, as "protagonists", *are* special, you'd think high-magic settings such as Eberron or Points of Light would have at least a few epic level NPCs.
I'm fine with PCs killing Fzoul or Manshoon, but it does take more than just a quick teleport in and a few encounters against "minions" after which they corner a frightful NPC in his bedroom and kill him; it takes [years of] time and careful planning to achieve something like this, and they need loads of luck, too (but then again, I think such a triumph feels all the much sweeter).
Last edited by Primal; 8th July 2009 at 02:26 AM..
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