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So, how are you finding it? Have you abandoned minis for your 4e games? Did you never use them? Or do you still find them essential (or you just prefer using them?)
I use Fiery Dragon counter PDFs. I simply collate the session's minis (much easier with the searchable names) onto a page, print it on to a label sticker, stick this onto foam board and cut as needed.
It helps with storage and speeds up prep time. Plus I can usually get a more accurate counter than I can get a more accurate mini.
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I use Fiery Dragon counter PDFs. I simply collate the session's minis (much easier with the searchable names) onto a page, print it on to a label sticker, stick this onto foam board and cut as needed.
It helps with storage and speeds up prep time. Plus I can usually get a more accurate counter than I can get a more accurate mini.
True; but the Fiery Dragon counters or PDFs have a very different price/conveinence profile than the actual miniatures do. At $10.99 on amazon, Arcane heroes is nearly $4 per mini!
Removing the granular tactical combat from 4e would rob it if the only thing I really like about it.
Agreed.
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I fully endorse 4e without minis. To me such a thing makes combat much more cinematic and visceral. I believe specific effects such as forced movement, teleporting, etc can be abstracted but still used for their intended purpose of gaining tactical advantage. Not that there is anything WRONG with using the minis, it's just something I'd like to try for a while. Unfortunately I'm also in the situation of most of my players being OCD about their tactical positioning on the field and several have told me that they are simply unable to imagine the combat happening in their heads.
I use small squares of cardboard that a friend of mine (player as well) cut up into 1' squares and we use a standard battlemap. I draw the terrain in with a dry erase and we go that route. I actually find the minis can be distracting (someone wants to see the cool new monster we're facing) as well, some of them take up more than their 1' square (see the genasi swashbuckler one, it's weapon extends easily 1/2 way into the next square).
Why? Well, I just haven't had the time to properly search through the 2,000 odd minis I have for those perfect ones... and being completely overbusy in the last few weeks, I've also not had enough time to fine the imperfect ones. So, we've been having a few combats without minis at all.
I started running into the busy problem, although not with minis exactly. I make my own tokens, so I was running into time issues putting together the images and printing out the token art, and then cutting it out and putting them on the tokens. Phew!
So, when I need to be lazy, I do one of two things:
Reuse old tokens. Who cares if they don't fit? Use your imagination!
Have my players cut out the art! Luckily they volunteer. I wouldn't ask them to do it. But they like the art, so all I need to do is print it up.
But I'm definitely interested in ways to do combat without the battle map. Usually I'm worried about speed, but that's not a problem with 4E. So I'm mainly just worried about how to make movement powers still fun and useful (luckily my group doesn't have a controller, so it's somewhat easier).
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While (as written) it doesn't eliminate miniatures/tokens entirely, the WFRP 3e rules seem to be a move in this direction. I could easily imagine running a game without minis at all.
It seems fairly adaptable to 4e D&D at first blush:
Any power/attack with a range of 1 square (close burst 1, melee 1, melee with a reach 1 weapon, etc) requires you to be engaged.
Any other close burst/blast, melee attack or ranged attack with a range of 5 or less requires you to be close.
Any ranged/area attack with a range of 10 or less squares requires you to be medium or closer, a range of 20 or less requires you to be long or closer and more than 20 squares is extreme.
Any character using a ranged/area power while engaged provokes OAs.
A shift allows you to move from engaged to close without provoking as a move action.
A move allows you to move from engaged to close or medium or one increment as a move action.
A run allows you to move two increments as a move action.
Teleporting is what gets me. Push, Pull, various powers I can link up better... but how do I make Fey Step work so it's useful and fun while still not using a grid?
Part of this falls on to the player, part on the DM. The DM can place interesting places to 'port to in an area, but the player has to try and use them.
For instance, you might teleport to the top of a bookcase, teleport under a table to hide, stuff like that. If you're not using miniatures, I think it helps to think a little more cinematically. The bad guys rush into the room, engage the fighter and paladin, and then the warlock teleports behind them. They can't turn around and attack him without taking opportunity attacks.
If it wasn't clear, I was responding the OPs issue of taking ages to look for correct minis. Searching PDFs of counters is much quicker IME.
__________________ New Zealand Outpost of RPG Thought: http://gametime.livejournal.com Playing: Paths of the Damned (WFRP); Return of Red Sun (Exalted 2e) Running: Dawn of Defiance (Star Wars Saga); Demon Queen's Enclave (D&D4e) Planning: Seekers of the Ashen Crown, Last Breaths of Ashenport & Remains of the Empire (D&D4e)
Teleporting is what gets me. Push, Pull, various powers I can link up better... but how do I make Fey Step work so it's useful and fun while still not using a grid?
Use a monster to grab your Teleporting Weenie From Hell. Then describe the DM's...uh...monster's annoyance when he Feysteps out of his grasp.
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Regardless of the System, I usually don't use minis/maps for battles with only 1-3 enemies and bigger battles with some sort of visualization (mostly minis) because they tend to cause too many misunderstandings.
4E is more difficult because of the importance of maneuvering (zones, pushes, etc.) but so far my still worked fine without Minis on small battles.
Generally with 4e, I run it without miniatures unless its a fairly big battle, in which case I use a dry-erase mat.
I manage this the same way as in previous editions (or other games) - describe the environment (often with a map or scrawled map), and modify the 4e principle of "Say Yes" to "Say Sure, Why Not".
It worked for me with flanky-mc-flank-flank rogues in 3e and the like, and seems to work fine in 4e.
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I only really started using minis after the DDM line came out. For the previous 20 years or so, most of my roleplaying was without minis.
Some sessions I use minis, others I don't.
At present, I'm trying to find a good way of storing Dungeon Tiles!
Cheers!
I use a little storage rack I got at WalMart here. It has proven invaluable and I put a small 'bead organizer' in the top drawer for the small pieces (it is a flat plastic container with little dividers in it and a lid).
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