Why the beer hate? (Forked Thread: What are the no-goes...)

[Jeff Wilder]

Originally Posted by the Jester

I think Mistwell's position that one is obligated to accept an invitation is idiotic and outdated.

I think Mistwell is overstating things; pushing back unnecessarily in defense due to the misunderstandings of others. I think his basic premise -- "it's rude to refuse to enter a social environment because you don't trust the other attendees enough not to be buffoons, and you have no experience with these other attendees being buffoons in the past" -- is pretty much correct.

BTW, the reason I use "damned peculiar" instead of "rude" is that I'm a rude enough person -- speaking as objectively as I can -- that I don't tend to judge others' behavior as rude. I'm not exactly offended by Bumbles' stated behavior (though I intellectually understand why others are), but genuinely bemused and fascinated by it. As i said earlier, as I would be if I entered a house for a game and was told they played in the nude.

[Herschel]

Originally Posted by Invisible Stalker

I think my annual trip to Red Lobster is about it.

I find it offensive that there are people who think Red Lobster is acceptable as a seafood restaurant.

I really don't drink any more. In fact, I've gone through long stretches where I haven't really imbibed even when I was a club DJ and some of the staff would sit around after close, most with a drink or two, and we'd shoot the breeze for a couple of hours until the drunks had a chance to hit Perkins/Denny's/Embers and clear off the roads. If someone wants a beer or glass of wine, more power to 'em. Just don't get carried away.

[MichaelK]

Originally Posted by Jeff Wilder

I think his basic premise -- "it's rude to refuse to enter a social environment because you don't trust the other attendees enough not to be buffoons, and you have no experience with these other attendees being buffoons in the past" -- is pretty much correct.

I myself find it equally rude to exert social pressure in order to force someone into an environment that they do not wish to be in. Whether their reasons are justified or not.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Bumbles

I'd rather live with people misjudging me than going along with things I didn't enjoy, but rather found highly distressing. I spent far too long being unhappy to want to go back to that way of behavior. And Annie's Mailbox seems to agree with me in principle, even regards to the approval of one's own mother. Standing up for myself was hard, but I learned to do it.

Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about right now.

Is this still about not gaming because there might be beer and therefore someone might drink and therefore someone might get drunk and therefore your night will be ruined?

EDIT: And this, my friends was post #3000. Whoo Hoo! And it only took me almost 6 years to do it!

[Hobo]

Originally Posted by the Jester

My take on it is- Bumbles, decline the invitations to game with those-who-might-drink; you are certainly within your rights. Especially if it comes out why you are declining, though, don't be surprised if you aren't invited anymore. The people-that-might-drink probably won't like it very much once they realize how harshly and unfairly you are judging them.

Indeed. I don't think anyone is claiming that he's not within his rights to set these limits on those with whom he associates, even the more extreme posters here so far. Rather, the discussion is on whether or not doing so is rude or socially acceptable.

I think it's telling that even other non-drinkers and non-smokers (like myself) find that abberent, rude, and a very quick turn-off towards any type of future association is pretty telling, but Bumbles can do with that as he pleases, of course.

[Jeff Wilder]

Originally Posted by MichaelK

I myself find it equally rude to exert social pressure in order to force someone into an environment that they do not wish to be in. Whether their reasons are justified or not.

Okay ... ?

What "social pressure" is being exerted? And by whom?

Are you positing that inviting someone to dinner is "exerting social pressure" and therefore "rude"? Really?

How interesting.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

...As a host, I would no more expect a vegetarian guest to eat meat than I would a kosher Jewish guest to eat lobster; <snip>

Similarly, no guest should have alcohol forced on them and it's reasonable for someone to leave my home if someone has become drunk and they're uncomfortable. I'd personally consider it somewhat extraordinary if a guest left just because someone in my home was having a glass of wine; in that case I'd consider it (as Bumbles has said, I think) their issue and not my failure as a host, and I'd shrug and carry on without them.

That is pretty much my position as well.

I host a lot of get-togethers, with dietary considerations ranging from the religious proscriptions (Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Catholics during Lent), to the medical (allergies, sodium-dependent hypertension, diabetes, alcoholism), to preferences (non-religious vegetarianism, well-done meats, Atkins diet) and so forth.

I make a concerted effort to have something for anyone in attendance, assuming I know of their requirements. I don't want anyone to feel they have to compromise their beliefs or requirements merely to have fun in my presence.

However, unless we are talking serious medical conditions- a person whose lethal allergy to peanuts or seafood precludes them from eating anything made in the same kitchen as those foods (and they do exist)- I wouldn't expect anyone to leave a party based upon someone consuming something they wouldn't.

Nor would I be insulted by their refusal to sample something offered...for ANY reason.

If one or the other drives you away...well, that's your problem, not mine.

[Dodavehu]

Sorry to hijack this thread for a second, but this looks like the perfect time and place to share a story that I've been looking for an excuse to tell for a while.

I run a pretty serious game that my roommate (among other people) play. Said roommate occationally will drink what he has in the fridge during games. A few sessions ago he drank a few and at a rather tense moment put a bottle of High Life on his forehead and shouted, "I'm a beericorn! Clipity-clop! Clipity-clop!"

I just about died.

(Maybe you had to be there.)

We told him he should probably stop drinking for the night after that .
--

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Dodavehu

A few sessions ago he drank a few and at a rather tense moment put a bottle of High Life on his forehead and shouted, "I'm a beericorn! Clipity-clop! Clipity-clop!"

I'm currently DMing, but I'm yoinking that for the next time I'm a player.

[Bumbles]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about right now.

Basically, it's about the question of life and how to live it. Anymore clarification I'll forgo, as it would be going widely off-topic.

[JRRNeiklot]

I don't understand this kind of thinking at all. You'd decline and otherwise great game because someone might potentially have a drink and become obnoxious. I might potentially rape your dog, the dm might potentially hold you hostage and demand 10,000 12 siders as ransom. How can you go or do anything without the potential for something bad happening? You could get ran over in the driveway, does that stop you from getting in your car?

[Fifth Element]

Originally Posted by Mistwell

The Emily Post Institute offers etiquette advice and manners advice

I could link you to a dozen etiquette sources. Are you really and honestly disputing there are rules of etiquette?

I don't dispute that certain ways of behaving will not be considered acceptable by almost everyone in a particular society. I'm disputing that there is a single set of "rules", such as those set out by Ms. Post (whoever she may have been), that must be followed to be considered "polite". I'm disputing that beyond very general things there is any real set of rules that must be followed.

Originally Posted by Mistwell

If so, before answering, ask a female in your life (wife, girlfriend, sister, mother, whatever) if they agree with you. Cause I am willing to bet they know exactly what I am talking about.

You've clearly never met my wife or mother, then. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you're talking about. There are some people in my family who think that "rules of etiquette" are extremely important. I simply reject that value judgment.

Originally Posted by Mistwell

I am

...

I am pretty sure it's even more strict in New Brunswick than here in California.

You seem to be saying there are no rules of manners where you live. I think you're just not aware of them, but they are there, and they apply to you, and probably others noticed you're not following them and are just politely not mentioning it to you.

I'm pretty sure that "I'm right, and you appear to be ignorant" would be considered rude by most people.

Are you thinking of New Brunswick, New Jersey? I'm referring to the province of New Brunswick in Canada. Otherwise I don't know why you'd think that.

Of course, I'm not saying what you say I'm saying, and you're being very presumptuous and condescending. Both of which are often considered rude, but not always.

[SteveC]

Wow. This discussion has certainly taken an interesting turn. Just so I can be sure I understand it, if there's this conversation:

Bill: Hey Ted, we're having a great game of D&D and we have an opening. Are you interested in playing? Oh, by the way, we have a couple folks in it who have a beer while we're playing every so often.

Ted: Sorry, Bill. I make it a point of not gaming where there might be alcohol involved.

In this case Ted has somehow offended Bill?

Case two:

Bill: Okay, so the ogre rears back and clobbers Socrates with his greatclub...that's 17 damage.

Socrates: Well I'm out...hmmn, Methinks I think I will fetch a glass of wine, since Ted's character is out of healing and I've already spent my second wind...

Ted: Umm, didn't we agree to no drinking during the game?

Socrates: certainly as a general principle, but I shall only have a small glass, and everyone knows I am renowned for my ability to drink and not have it affect me.

Ted: Uh, I'm not comfortable with that, I should probably call it an early night.

...once again, has Ted done something offensive?

If you believe Ted has been offensive, replace drinking with smoking, watching the TV or simply something that you (the person reading this) don't like. If your opinion changes,is there a difference here, or is it just a preference that you don't share?

Personally I think we should give personal preference, for whatever the reason, the prerogative to opt out, and not have anyone be insulted by it. If I'm totally off base here, I'd like to know why that is...

--Steve

[Fifth Element]

Originally Posted by Jeff Wilder

Pretty straightforward parallel, I thought. Hope this helps.

You suggested that Bumbles thought people should never go on picnics because it might rain. That's different than saying Bumbles chooses not to go on picnics because it might rain. The difference is between personal behaviour and expecting every else to behave like you do.

Call it peculiar, which it might well be. But it's a choice.

[Krensky]

Bumbles, the problem is that your stance of not attending any event where alcohol is present on the basis that people might become drunk is on it's face, well, let's say absurd. It's also prejudiced and unfair. You are collecting every person who imbibes (which is probably somewhere on the order of a few billion people) and saying because some of them are bad actors they must all be bad actors.

You've made it quite clear that you don't wish to discuss anything personal in order to clarify the reasons and motivations behind this personal choice. However, with out that information it is impossible for you to actually explain yourself. If, and this is an example not a guess, someone's father was a brutal alcoholic who beat them and killed their mother and that person expressed the view of not wanting to be around people who were or had been drinking, it would seem far less absurd then your position, stripped of context and history, does. Still not necessarily a rational position, but that's neither here or there.

Personally, I could care less about your personal life and I'm not asking about it. The problem though is that you have taken an apparently absurd position and refused to explain with any clarity how you achieved it. This, combined with the prejudicial nature of the position means that it is quite easy to see as offensive.