Where does this idea come from? (Forked Thread: The still "complete" list)

[Lanefan]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

There's a vast difference between "book bloat" and "setting bloat." Multiple settings compete with each other; multiple sourcebooks do not (or at least do so to a much lesser degree.)

Settings bloat is mostly fluff and can be ignored by those not using said fluff. Books, on the other hand, are usually more crunchy, and thus cannot be so easily ignored by those looking for a "complete" game or ruleset.

That said, bloat is bloat.

How do you figure? Based on what model? How many books "should" a 5-year run have?

In other words, I'm not seeing anything in this other than some people have a "gut feeling" that there are too many books. Now, that's certainly an opinion people are welcome to, but it doesn't do much in the way of convincing me why they feel that way, or suggest to me that there's any hard reasoning behind it.

Assuming the books are all core, as 4e comes right out and suggests, then I'd prefer there be time to fully digest book A (of whatever current edition/game I might be playing) and assimilate it into my game before being presented with book B. (I'm unusual in that for me that process could take years; I'm trying to be a bit more general here) The original 4e model of having a new wave of three core books released each year didn't seem too bad...provided that's all there was. But we're only just now hitting a year and there's already...how many?

Lanefan

[wedgeski]

Originally Posted by Ainamacar

These points aren't exhaustive, and they aren't immune to nit-picking, but I think the basic thrust is sound. Putting them together, it doesn't surprise me that the "too much too quickly" perspective is oft repeated.

All true, and a very good post.

I'm in Mouse's camp, really. There *are* a lot of books for 4E, but nothing that has struck me as breaking the pattern of the last few years.

I've had friends who dabble in gaming come over and express a little surprise at how quickly my 4E shelf has filled up, but I attribute that mainly to the fact that I'm a bigger fan of this edition than the last, and I DM a weekly 4E game which I never managed to do for 3E, thus my purchasing habits have gone up a gear accordingly.

I have at least one player who likes the opportunity to weigh every option he has when creating characters, and he was pretty glum that he couldn't justify buying all of the splats. He perked right up when I told him that the free trial of the CB had everything up to 3rd level, which would at least allow him to get a feel for the different classes.

[Baz King]

For me its all about utility. I can't play enough to keep up with my purchases. I think I'm a good customer of WotC, I buy everything in print, I have a full sub to DDI and I grab all the minis and tiles I can. Trouble is, I simply don't get to use them all. I run a weekly game, never miss one, and we get about 3 hours of proper game in. I'd like to play more but you know how modern life is. We've been playing since launch and our group is hitting 10th level now. That's a common experience I think? Now, the modules on my shelf go up to level 27 and deep in my heart I know that I'm 2 years from finishing the run. That's faintly depressing! I'll never get to play all the delves, or Scales of War, or the stuff in Dungeon or the 3pp stuff that looks so good.
Worse, given how hard it is to actually die as a PC, my campaign is very unlikely to ever see the races and classes released since PHB I.

Now, I shouldn't complain. Choice is good, and I need to be more rigourous in exercising that choice. Tellingly, I don't think I'll buy Divine Power. I haven't finished reading Martial Power yet! As much as I'd like to have it all, I know I can never use it all. So, I will buy less. And that pains me.

Or I could not run campaigns, and do one shots and short runs. Not my style.

Its a conundrum, both for me and I think for WotC too.

(Oh, I'd have had exactly the same issue with 3.x too, so its not about the edition)

[vagabundo]

To be honest I'm finding it hard to keep pace with the 4e releases, lucky DDI keeps things in check. An electronic, searchable database is a Godsend.

But my TT game moves at a snails pace. To be honest I could probably get by with just the core books for my own group, but I like being in with all the stuff that is out there and I am enjoying the articles. I also like feeling like I am contributing to keeping DND alive, odd that, but there it is.

I do feel swamped with the releases, but, if I had kept pace with the 3e releases I would have been swamped too. As it was in the eight or so years I played 3e I only bought the core books and the FRCS - I did re-buy the core books when 3.5 came out.

I already have more 4e books then 3e ones, but I do like this edition more.

[Maggan]

Originally Posted by Jack99

5 year run? Compared to what? 1st edition? I thought it had been established that things were released at the same pace as in 3.x?

Once a long time ago, I counted the releases of each edition. AD&D and D&D3.x had comparable paces of release (but D&D3.x had thicker books, whereas AD&D had a lot more slender modules).

AD&D2nd blew both out of the water when it came to sheer numbers. It would have taken D&D3.x about 20 years at the pace they adopted to catch up with AD&D2nd edition.

Of course, second edition had all these campaign settings, but a lot of generic books were released as well. A lot of books.

Those with the search option can probably find my original posts about this.

Cheers!

/M

[Vanuslux]

My first impulse was that it has to do with the rapid fire rate at which we're recieving new material through DDI on top of the fact that virtually nothing that comes out is easily dismissed. It feels like a constant bombardment of content without any lull in which to digest the material and assimilate it. While I'm loathe to complain about getting "too much" good stuff, the pace of it all is taking some getting used to.

[ExploderWizard]

I don't feel the release schedule is too large. In a way, the increased speed of book releases helps the DDI. The subscription model brings in steady revenue and thats what is best for profits. An individual book loaded with pages of powers might not be a huge seller, but if the contents were available online and integrated into character building software (which it is) then the online deal looks a lot more attractive to the consumer.

[ggroy]

Originally Posted by Ainamacar

Third, "everything is core" has been intrepreted by some people to mean that new crunch is "less optional" than in previous editions. Even if this is an unconscious response I think it tends to enhance the completist urge among consumers taken as a whole.

WotC has probably learned their lesson very well, from the 3.5E era of proliferating splatbooks and the TSR 2E AD&D era of proliferating settings.

At times I wonder how well the 3E/3.5E splatbooks actually sold. I remember seeing several 3.5E Eberron and Forgotten Realms splatbooks in the discount section of a few "big box" bookstores in town. It wasn't just one or two copies, but stacks of 8 or 9 copies of each splatbook for $6 a pop.

From this, I wonder how many splatbooks actually did more than one printing. Of the 3.5E splatbooks I've picked up over the last year from various discount and clearance sales at FLGS, big box bookstores, and online, the only ones in my collection which indidicated they had more than one printing are:

- Complete Arcane
- Complete Adventurer (3rd printing)
- Eberron Campaign Setting (3rd printing)
- Faiths and Pantheons
- Player's Handbook 2 (3rd printing)
- Book of Exalted Deeds
- Monster Manual 3

I used this method for determining printings:

Editions and Printings, How to Tell the Difference: a guide for book collectors

Though this method does not tell you how large the actual print runs were. For example, underprinting something could drive the publisher to do another print run or two, if a title sold out very quickly.

Originally Posted by Ainamacar

Fourth, and related to the last point, is the business model underlying 4e. Roughly, maximize the number of potential buyers for every book by reducing setting-specific material and emphasizing "generic" material whenever possible. Whether this is a good choice (financially or from the hobbyist's perspective) has been discussed pretty thoroughly in other threads, but it can enhance the "too much too quickly" perspective. In short, even if the total amount of material produced were precisely the same as in previous editions, every consumer that isn't a completist already is being marketed more material than before. From the perspective of the individual consumer that can feel like more material has been produced, and it potentially influences the perspectives of a large percentage of the total D&D audience.

This perception of "everything is core" of 4E generic content causing an enhancment of the "too much too quickly" perspective, could backfire eventually on WotC if the content quality of the splatbooks nosedives in later years to being mediocre or outright crap. If at least the content quality of future splatbooks is on par or even superior to the earlier released 4E books, they can probably prolong the 4E splatbook treadmill somewhat longer until the 4E product line inevitably runs out of steam. All these things compounded together may possibly even shorten the market lifetime of 4E D&D, when it comes to selling paper books in bookstores and FLGS.

The big unknown variable in the 4E product line, is the future viability of DDI. Even if WotC ends up releasing less 4E splatbooks in the later years, the DDI service may possibly still be viable. Subscription fees coming in every month is something they have better control of, than the vagarities of the book business (ie. printing, shipping, dealing with returns, etc ...). If WotC is keeping to their commitment of online exclusive content which may not show up in any paper splatbooks, this may possibly be a another selling point for DDI.

I wouldn't be surprised if DDI ends up becoming the dominant cash cow for 4E D&D. With the D&D brand being licensed for possible future video games and MMORPGs, they might even be able to cross market it with DDI. For example, every D&D licensed video game or MMORPG account can come with a one month free trial subscription to DDI.

[Keia]

I like to think that the philosophy of 4e is more a horizontal spread than a vertical speed, with horizontal being more options, and vertical being the power level of a particular item.

3e and 3.5e seemed to suffer in that in order to continue to put out material, the latest material had to be better than (or more powerful than) the last. So far, purely from a GM and player perspective (not an analyst or anything), it seems that there is very little, if any, power increase, and all increases have been in the more options vein.

If the perspective is to give more options . . . then the number of books seems reasonable, and I know that everyone in my group looks forward to the next months releases with interest. I definitely don't hear the "Ah heck no, not another 4e book ?!?" from my players or my GMs .

I like that there's someone new every month, and that everything is growing (options wise).

[The Ghost]

Originally Posted by ggroy

What probably counts in the end, is how many D&D books are being sold in spite of what the collective market thinks. If the perception is drastically affecting book sales, then WotC will change accordingly and not produce as many books. If the perception isn't doing anything sales wise, then WotC will just keep on doing the same thing until the 4E line runs out of steam eventually.

Oh, I agree very much with what your saying. What I am saying is that many of us look at the end of 3E and compare that to what is currently going on with 4E. A lot of people thought the last few 3E books were pretty bad and have concluded that it was the rate of release that caused the existence of bad books and that bad books led to the creation of 4E. They then look at the rate of release for 4E and conclude that 4E must follow 3E's path. I don't know whether or not that will actually happen but I do know many people who believe it will.

[Harlekin]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

Forked from: The still "complete" list of official 4E products, now with 2010



I've seen this sentiment expressed--the notion that 4E is putting out books at a "too rapid" rate--many, many times, and I'm not sure where it comes from. Assuming one is counting books specifically (I have no idea what's up with minis releases), the schedule is no more fast-paced than it was during the prior edition. Seriously.

Is it the fact that a lot of the books this time around have 2, 3, etc. in the title? Is that what's causing this perception? Or is it something else?

This isn't me being challenging. I really want to know.

I think it will also depend on who makes these observations. If I follow a gameline, I like to be able to buy one new book per month. If I am mildly interested but don't follow a gameline I often do not look at their catalog for 6 months, at which point I am amazed how much stuff has been released. In my case, I was always considering to get into WH 2nd, and was amazed when they suddenly (in my perception) had 10 supplements.

As a some posters here do not play 4th, they may be under the same effect.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by ggroy

Perhaps releasing 3.5E was their way of hitting the "reset" button.

Absolutely, the funny (sad) thing is they had already planned to hit re-set from the beginning according to people like Monte Cook, SKR, and other 3.0 designers).

As to the discussion at hand- I like the "everything is core" mentality of the books- however "everything is core" to me as a DM does not mean "everything is permissable without my consent". It simply means the books are designed to be useful for all DMs and players because they are not specific to a certain campaign setting or whatnot.

That may not be everyone's interpretation but that is mine (and frankly ALWAYS has been- I'm fairly accomodating to new items, spells, and classes, just please run it by me to make sure whatever you want to use fits/can be fitted to the setting I'm using and/or is not "broken" ).

Now if WOTC starts going the TSR route and requiring 15 prior splats and monster manuals to utilize the new X I just bought from them, then someone there is gonna get an earfull from me

For my own part- I'm personally not going to buying the "X Power" books, nor will I grab the PHB3 (nothing so far that I see in the PHB3 seems useable for the settings/games I run). But I will buy the MM3, and possibly DMG3. The PHB2/MM2 are bought already (and are great, love them both) and the DMG2 is on pre-order. I don't think the release schedule really bothers me at all- I buy what I want, when I want/need it. And if you are one of those gamers who feel compelled to keep up with the joneses (a mentality I personally can't identify with), the DDI will get you all the splat crunch for alot cheaper than the print books.

To be honest though, I could get plenty of gaming mileage out of just the "1s", MM2 and AV1.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

It's true that 4E has more generic releases than 3.5, but it's not producing any more total books. I'm not really sure that I see that much of a distinction; it's still a case of "I like this concept, so I'll get it, I don't like that one, so I won't."

It may not seem significant, but it can be.

People generally want the "Core" stuff for their games, and many experienced gamers will pick and choose what setting books they'll pick up. Some don't buy any.

By shifting away from publishing setting specific books towards publishing core books, you pressure (not force, pressure) those gamers into buying more.

In addition, by spreading the Core over several books, you apply pressure to an even broader cross-section of the market. How many 4Ed books do you need to have access to the published versions of all of the classes in the 3Ed/3.5Ed PHB?

I can guarantee you that such considerations arose in our community when 4Ed was released. Out of 10+ gamers, everyone in the group has their own 3Ed PHB and several have a 3.5PHB. Only a few have any of the setting books. I'm the "Librarian," with nearly a complete collection of FR and Eberron stuff. IOW, few of the guys spent more than $100 on 3.X material. And as you go back across the editions, the model holds- one or 2 guys like me buy virtually everything, but most just buy a few key books (a PHB and maybe a DMG) and let everything else pass them by.

When 4Ed was released, the new business model was actually a concern. Disliked mechanical changes aside, many in the group were equally dismayed by the release schedule- they expressed concerns about how their favorite classes weren't in the new PHB, or were to appear in separate PHBs. Guys like me aren't really affected, but them? Some guys who might have spent $30-60 on the previous edition of D&D were being asked to pay $60-90...plus the delay of having to wait until the class they wanted was released.

At the very least, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of some gamers. At worst, its a complete turnoff.

[ggroy]

Originally Posted by The Ghost

What I am saying is that many of us look at the end of 3E and compare that to what is currently going on with 4E.

I've been looking at this along the same lines too.

Originally Posted by The Ghost

A lot of people thought the last few 3E books were pretty bad and have concluded that it was the rate of release that caused the existence of bad books and that bad books led to the creation of 4E.

The cynical side of me thinks that this is "planned obsolescence" in action.

Originally Posted by The Ghost

They then look at the rate of release for 4E and conclude that 4E must follow 3E's path. I don't know whether or not that will actually happen but I do know many people who believe it will.

I suspect this time around, the "what were they thinking?" mediocre or outright crap stuff which could have ended up in various 3E/3.5E splatbooks in the past, may possibly end up being confined to DDI for however long it takes to sort the designs out. I would guess that releasing such incomplete alpha or beta designs to paying DDI subscribers, would make better financial sense than releasing mediocre splatbooks (filled with crappy alpha/beta designs) which only the hardcore D&D "completionist" collectors and a few others would buy.

WotC perhaps may have learned some hard lessons from the era of 3.5E splatbooks, of releasing a lot of mediocre content. This time around they may just keep the mediocre stuff on DDI, until the designs have worked themselves out. Later on the better stuff may possibly end up being published in the annual Dragon Magazine books or even another splatbook if there's enough related content to fill up 160 pages.

[D'karr]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Now if WOTC starts going the TSR route and requiring 15 prior splats and monster manuals to utilize the new X I just bought from them, then someone there is gonna get an earfull from me

I was looking through the Eberron Player's Guide this morning and when I got to the equipment section I was elated to see that they included the Alchemy section as part of Alchemical Items directly on the book, instead of referring me to the Adventurer's Vault. It was also refreshing to see that they included the Alchemist feat as part of the book.

The more self-contained the books remain the more I'm bound to be grateful and spend more money on additional books.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Lanefan

That said, bloat is bloat.

It really, really isn't. If you'd like, I'll be happy to go into why setting bloat is far worse for the company (if not the market) than "other bloat," but this thread probably isn't the place for it. Feel free to fork, if you care enough to pursue it.

The original 4e model of having a new wave of three core books released each year didn't seem too bad...provided that's all there was. But we're only just now hitting a year and there's already...how many?

Except the original 4E model was never about "There will be three core books a year, and nothing more." Yes, they said one new PHB, DMG, and MM per year, but they never once claimed, or even implied, that those would be the only books.

[outsider]

Frankly, I rather like WotC's release schedule, and the way they are dividing up the content into different books. It's really easy to get the content you want and ignore the rest for the most part. For example, if you like martial characters, all you really need is the PHB1, Martial Power, and a DDI subscription(not even a continuous sub, just sub for a month here and there). The tidbits of martial content you might want from other books are easily snagged off of DDI rather than going out and buying more books.

I'm the type of person that'll buy 2 or 3 books a year. They way WotC has been dividing up the content gives me a pretty good bang for my buck.

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by outsider

Frankly, I rather like WotC's release schedule, and the way they are dividing up the content into different books. It's really easy to get the content you want and ignore the rest for the most part. For example, if you like martial characters, all you really need is the PHB1, Martial Power, and a DDI subscription(not even a continuous sub, just sub for a month here and there). The tidbits of martial content you might want from other books are easily snagged off of DDI rather than going out and buying more books.

I'm the type of person that'll buy 2 or 3 books a year. They way WotC has been dividing up the content gives me a pretty good bang for my buck.

I agree.

As a DM I find with this edition I don't have to buy as many books this go around. I don't feel I "need" every book to help keep things challenging/fun for the players. Especially with a DDI subscription.

Previously I felt like things were spread out in a scattered fashion, they seem a lot more organized now.