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I have been DMing this 3.0 group for 1 year and the process is slowly burning me out. I'm a DM that prepares a lot for the sessions. I usually take about twice as long as we actually play (which I consider a lot). We play in my self-created homebrew world and I write my own adventures. I invest a lot of time in our wiki which details the world and it's NPCs and I create side stories that involve the player character's backgrounds. With three of the players, everything is fine. I like them, they like my DMing style, they enjoy the game and give me the feeling that they're generally appreciative.
The two other players constantly give me the feeling that they take everything that happens in the game for granted. Whereas the other players accept my rulings and generally respect me, these two guys always criticise, as if nothing I prepared was ever good enough for them. Slowly, my table has shifted towards a 'DM vs. players' atmosphere since these two are the most vigorous players and often control the mood. I really hate that atmosphere and it's something I have never had with other groups. These two dislike the pace of the game, complain that the monsters are too tough (although no character has ever died or even came close), they don't have enough magic gear, I am unfair and always rule against the group when something in the RAW is unclear and that generally their expectations aren't met. I try to be a DM that doesn't rule over the players. I am sometimes convinced that something I ruled was wrong and then I change course. But what I really miss is some respect for the work I invest. Just something like "Thanks, the last session was really cool" instead of a "yeah, that sucked again. Aw well, let's see what he'll be dragging us through next time" (not spoken out directly, of course).
This is really frustrating me. Should I just end the campaign? That would be like giving up for me. Also, I couldn't throw these players out, as they are friends.
I'd be really thankful for your recommendations on how to go from here. Maybe someone has had similar experiences? Cheers,
If they are friends talk to them iout of game about this. Maybe they don't realize the work you put into this. Maybe they just aren't seeing things from your perspective. Hopefully talking it out can fix the problem for everyone.
Friends don't always make the best players, not if their style is incompatible with yours. It should be possible to cut them loose, without it affecting the friendship, by being upfront and mature* about the whole thing. If that's not a good option for you, then say to the two what you just said here.
EDIT: *Alternatively you can tell the two the campaign has ended and then continue it secretly with the three good players. That's what we did and it worked great!
__________________ The female tiefling's horns are not 'handlebars'.
Last edited by Doug McCrae; 10th July 2009 at 01:49 AM..
I'd be really thankful for your recommendations on how to go from here. Maybe someone has had similar experiences?
Do not feel ashamed because you can't handle everything to the satisfaction of others around you. They may or may not try to make you feel that way, but if they do, it's their problem not yours.
Taking a break, quitting, it's all reasonable behavior. There's nothing wrong with saying no.
Though I would suggest you do it on a group scale, rather than an individual one if it's a longer-term problem, and you are concerned about your ability to resolve the conflict with your friends. People are less inclined to argue with "Ok, I've got to stop this for a while" than "I don't want you around any more" in my experience, and it seems you want to avoid that issue. Which is fine, it's not going to make you something shameful to do so. That might well be the best solution for you.
I would talk to them out of game. Invite them over together, or singly on a non game night and sit them down, and let them no that hey are hurting your feelings/pissing you off (or whatever it is your feeling raw about).
I have been playing with the same folks for about 2 decades and sometimes folks just get burnt out. I am the primary DM for our group and I also invest a lot of time in world building and scenario writing. Sometimes it does not go as I would hope.
What I tend to do with players in my group who criticize my game is bring the session to a good stopping place and let them know that its their turn to run for the next several sessions, and I make them run for a bit. I don't try and trash their games or anything that petty. I just make them run until they start to burn out. And they will burn out. All DMs have burnout days. And when I catch them on that burn out day I pull them aside at the end of the session and ask them if they would like for me to run again the next session. When they say "yes", I ask them to afford me the same respect that you gave to them when they were running.
I have found over the years that my players don't really complain all that much anymore. If they don't like the way a story is going they try and change it through good roleplay, or if they don't feel like they are getting enough loot, they become quite mercanary in game. But they really don't complain all that much. Because they don't want to have to be in the DM seat for a long time.
So honestly the TLDR version is, talk to the players in private, and get them to DM a little, it will change their perspective.
I had conflict with my players for the first time last session.
I had prepared 3 simultaneous skill challenges al typed up in beautiful font and with images of indiana Jones fleeing the giant ball of stone and Rocky Balboa at the top of the steps etc. I also gave them a page detailing the general survival rules/hazards of the temple where the skill challenges occured.
I was sure it was gong to be a very exciting, thrilling evening for everyone, and I had spent hours preparing ths special climatic treat for my players
It was tense from the beginning because everyone knew their PC's lives were on the line. It was the first time I had run a skill challenge so transparently. And as the infighting began and the tension increased creeping into the personal terrain, I realised I had screwed up.
Everyone went home grumbling, avoiding eye-contact. And all that despite the fact that they had been successful despite the odds stacked against them.
I felt horrible. Like a total failure.
The next day the sniping continued, and I heard that I was being accused of bias/favouritism by 3 of my players. That turned my crummy feeling into downright blazing fury.
I don't mind if my players let me know they thought something I did was crap or boring... but accusing me of FAVOURITISM!!!!!!! That is going too far!
I let them know I was very annoyed but wisely we didn't talk it out till tempers were cooled today.
I expressed my hurt at the accusation. I also shared my feelings of failure, because my main goal is to make everyone have a fantastic time (literally). I think it was very positive to express our feelings and now the negativity has been erased. I guess you need to know where they are coming from, and they need to take into account where you are coming from. Then you need to find a middle road where everyone is comfortable, including yourself.
__________________ 'I am a predator...the predator improves the race...I kill but not out of hate.' Frank Herbert: Emperor God of Dune
Hold on a second. I think there's a few key points here. There are some specifics in your post:
Quote:
These two dislike the pace of the game, complain that the monsters are too tough (although no character has ever died or even came close), they don't have enough magic gear, I am unfair and always rule against the group when something in the RAW is unclear and that generally their expectations aren't met.
You have, unless I really miss my guess, a couple of power gamers in your group. These sorts of whines from players are actually DM Gold. (Few recognize it.) They come back week after week right? They're trying to beat you personally. Not the game. They want to be the biggest, baddest a$$ in existence. You thwart their raison d'etre by being outside their desires.
Keep it up. Hit 'em harder. Make them suffer a little more.
You're doing fine kid.
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I had some experiences similar to the OP. I solved it by telling my problem players I was burned out and asking if one of them would take over DMing for a while so I could play.
After they had a chance to sit in the "hotseat" the had a different appreciation for the challenges of DMing and I enjoyed having them at the table after their attitude change.
Sounds like a style conflict. A classy player, when recognizing a style conflict, will politely thank the DM, but explain that they really aren't getting what they want out of the game. Maybe there's a round of compromise in both directions, where both parties make an attempt to come to common ground and still have fun.
Sounds to me like you don't have classy players. I'd tell them that you're not enjoying the game, and it's obvious they're not enjoying the game, so you think it would be best if they just didn't play any more. If that's impossible, put the game on hiatus for a couple of months and when you restart, reschedule it to a time you know that one or both of them won't be able to come. Chances are they won't put up much of a fuss if they don't like the game to start with.
If they are friends, don't do the "tell them it's ending but don't really". They always find out.
Take up heavy drinking and smoking. I have learned this will get rid of players that you don't want in the game. Or, it might get rid of good players too. But at least you'll look cool!
*Do not try this at home unless you are a trained professional. I in no way promote such bad habits to the inexperienced.*
Alternatively, if you're having fun with the other three...just play with them only. If you're worried 3 makes too small a group, let them use the Gestalt rules. Gestalt's a lot of fun, it'd be a nice reward for being appreciative players to let them tinker with dual class combinations.
My online gaming group, Torch of Spirit (Contains all information for the current game I'm co-DMing as well as lots of houserules I'm using or considering for the future. Feel free to check it out.)
Are those two like that in general (i.e., less grateful and gracious/thankful, on the whole) ? If so, there's your answer. Most likely.
And if not, are they being really disruptive throughout the actual sessions? Or are they just being ungrateful wretches outside the game, and whining a bit here and there? In the first instance, try talking with them about the problem, levelly and firmly, and see if you can get to the bottom of what's eating them*; get them to cough it up, so maybe it can be reasoned through or around. In the second instance, feh, never mind; that they're still turning up to play says a lot, right? Unless your patience/sensitivity can't withstand it of course, and then, you might want to default to the first instance's solution.
It sounds like you're doing well as a DM, either way. Good luck!
* Unless, yeah, as has been mentioned, they are simply powergamers, and you and the others are not. At which point, you gotta decide whether that's cool with you (and the others).
Last edited by Aus_Snow; 10th July 2009 at 10:07 AM..
You've been given a lot of replies here, but one that has been missed, is to GIVE THEM what they think they want!
Stop, tell the PCs you have an idea for a SUPER one-shot adventure, and you want to run it in x weeks.
Have them create characters of some high level (10th if that's high for your group, or even 15th or higher). Let them equip the characters to the MAX according to player wealth rules, and then GIVE each of them some "super item" of your own design.
Then run them through a nice, easy lower-level dungeon that presents no challenge to them. Let them smash everything. Give them tons of loot. Every time there's a rules question, just say "of course it works your way" and make a favorable, easy, walk-all-over-it ruling.
When they ask what's going on, tell them you're certain it is just what they've been asking for for the past few months. Be serious. You're not kidding, or being dishonest. You're meeting their every demand. Give exactly the same treatment to ALL the players.
I bet they'll have a blast for about 3 hours, and then get bored. At the end, ask them if they would like to DM for a while, or if they'd like to keep playing this game ad infinitem, or go back to the regular campaign where there is at least a modicum of control and challenge to the game....
(And then doublecheck to be sure you're not being a skinflint; and raise the difficulty/death level a tiny bit - if they're slightly more in fear of death, they may be less inclined to gripe about treasure and such).
Think of the time spent on game prep, the wiki, detailing your home-brew, etc., as unrelated to the game. Do them because you enjoy the world-building, not because you expect the players to appreciate it. It's nice if they do, but a lot of players just want to play, they don't need or want a ton of backstory and detail. Those that do want those things might feel constrained or painted into corners by your efforts to script their histories in your side stories.
Look at that time spent as time spent enjoying your hobby, not as a chore and a consequent obligation on the part of your players to respect the time you spent away from the table. You'll be a lot happier.
Think of the time spent on game prep, the wiki, detailing your home-brew, etc., as unrelated to the game. Do them because you enjoy the world-building, not because you expect the players to appreciate it. It's nice if they do, but a lot of players just want to play, they don't need or want a ton of backstory and detail. Those that do want those things might feel constrained or painted into corners by your efforts to script their histories in your side stories.
Look at that time spent as time spent enjoying your hobby, not as a chore and a consequent obligation on the part of your players to respect the time you spent away from the table. You'll be a lot happier.
And welcome to ENWorld!
This.
Enjoy the work you put into the game for its own sake and don't do it because you expect to somehow be repaid with player gratitude.
Have you thought of hopping out of the D&D game and trying something else for a few sessions? Look into Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, M&M, Buffy/Angel, Star Wars, Warhammer FRP, or even (especially?) something like Paranoia for a one-shot. Or, heck, even one of the many freely available retro-clones like S&W or OSRIC. Then, segue back into the 3e D&D campaign that is, by all appearances, your gaming passion.
Sometimes a change of pace is all you need to keep your games feeling new and exciting. I've found it helps my DMing a lot, and my players like doing something different once in a while.
I had conflict with my players for the first time last session.
<snip>
I expressed my hurt at the accusation. I also shared my feelings of failure, because my main goal is to make everyone have a fantastic time (literally). I think it was very positive to express our feelings and now the negativity has been erased. I guess you need to know where they are coming from, and they need to take into account where you are coming from. Then you need to find a middle road where everyone is comfortable, including yourself.
You have piqued my curiosity. Any more details you feel comfortable giving out? How did you "screw up" (if, in fact, you did) and how did that lead to accusations of favoritism?
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
Agree with Rodrigo and Rel. No one cares how much you work on your game.
That isn't a bad thing, its just how things are. Imagine you go to see a stand up comedian, and he tells a joke that isn't funny. When no one laughs, he starts telling you how long he worked on that joke, he put hours and hours into it. Does that make the joke funnier? No. Neither does you explaining how much work you put into the game matter, apart from your enjoyment of doing so.
I like the idea of having them run some games, not to throw it back at them but to see what they do. I believe that everyone runs the kind of game they wish they were playing in. It could be very educational. See if you can get them to do it for this reason - lets take a break and have you guys run awhile, so I can see what you think makes for a fun game!
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Man, the people on ENWorld are awesome. You've got a lot of great advice here.
While there's been a lot of talk about burnout, my own take on it is that you're suffering more from poor players than from burning out. That is, it seems to me that if the two players you described were more like the other three, there wouldn't be a problem at all.
If that's the case, then I would question your assumption that "I can't kick them out because they're friends." I love dnd, and one of my best friends is in a dnd game. That game is very heavy on roleplaying, and I'm more into combat, so I never received an invitation. I wasn't hurt, the friendship wasn't hurt -- it just makes sense. When you talk to these two guys, say, "Look, it's obvious that I'm not running the game you want to play and you're not playing the game I want to run. I'd love to play in some of your games if you want to take a shot at DM-ing, but as for the main campaign, I think everybody would be a lot happier if it continued without you."
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I've found it helps my DMing a lot, and my players like doing something different once in a while.
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