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I wonder if the actual wizard had any wizardy inspiration. Not that cribbing Gandalf for the Invoker makes him illegal to use as a wizard, of course, but D&D wizards haven't been very Gandalf-y ever.
I also wonder if mearls's experience of fantasy inspiration coming later is something that the rest of the team had, as well -- in other words, that they might start with, say, a mechanical inspiration or a 3e class that needs an analogue, and only worry about the fantasy you can distil from that after the initial inspiration.
Something like "We need a healer who is not the cleric" -> Warlord, or "We have all these neat cleric attack spells that didn't get used" -> Invoker/Avenger.
I also wonder how much their inspiration matches the ideas that come later. Thinking about it after mearls's comment, Gandalf = Invoker makes some sense, but before then, what was Gandalf to you in D&D? And what was the Invoker?
Well, D&D spells and magic system is kinda based on Vance books, and I suppose the wizards in his Dying Earth novels must have bee kinda like the D&D Wizards. At least that's what I gather from the various discussions on "Vancian Magic".
The mechanical roots supposedly were Artillery pieces from war games. I don't know if that is really true, though it kinda makes sense. (And it is probably not coincidence that many 4E monsters that are Wizards/Spellcasters by fluff do have the Artillery role).
Imagine just a world where it was not Vance and Artillery pieces as inspiration, but really Gandalf or Merlin. What would we have? Spellcasters more like Beguilers, Druids or Bards? Magic that is often subtle, confuses the mind of people, or having power about the elements (like the elements of Weather, not like bat guana explosions) and animals or plants?
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The Invoker to me would probably have been a Cleric that focuses not on buffs, healing or melee enhancement spells but on stuff like Flame Strike or Command. I visualize Invokers as Stargate SG1 Ori priests.
A "real" Wizard might have been somethig like a Beguiler, Bard or Druid, with a lot less fleshy spells for the Druid (no Flame Strike).
A Warlord to me might be someone like Roy from Order of the Stick. I know he is supposedly a Fighter, but frack, he is consistently smart and charismatic, he is the one leading the team and the guy with the plan. He is like many movie and literary characters in charge of a team. Of course, in movies, this leader guy is also the protagonists and will often be found alone, which damages this image, of course.
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Gandalf is an older bearded man in robes with a pointy wide brimmed hat who never wears armor. He carries a staff and smokes a pipe. He is very learned, actively adventures, and uses magic (though very conservatively). He is called a wizard.
I can see him as an archetypal inspiration for wizards throughout D&D's history.
And the inspiration for the Wizard in D&D was never a fantasy wizard - it was a person copied from the real world: the angry, book-loving nerd that really wished that he could kill you with his brain.
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I totally agree on the Conan-as-Fighter-Rogue thing. And he DID wear armor every now and then (mostly in his days as a mercenary).
Why do you see Conan as a multiclass rogue in 4e? I have only skimmed the 4e PH but my understanding is that rogue powers work only with light weapons while Conan uses big swords and axes with which these would not work. Also anybody can pick up skills like stealth and fighters already get the physical one which takes care of his super climbing. What does 4e rogue multiclass give the build besides the name association with Conan's time as a thief?
Rogue multiclass as the 4e Conan concept seems a holdover to old edition mechanics when that was how you could simulate Conan's skills (plus the fact that he was a thief).
In LotR, Gandalf is a lot more of a divine figure than a simple wizard. He doesn't have a spellbook, he doesn't have a tower, and his magic is usually not flashy. Instead, whenever he does something supernatural, it's calling upon his divine nature... You know, Keeper of the Flame of Udun, etc.
I don't necessarily think Gandalf when I think Invoker though. Frankly, I think Moses is a better model for the class.
(and this goes for several others, most likely) I wasn't saying or implying that he's meant to be a Wizard, btw.
But thanks, for at least kinda vaguely referring to what the Invoker is about. That's more than most have given out.
So, invokers call upon their divine nature? Sure, I can see that then. And they look the part as well, someone said?
(and this goes for several others, most likely) I wasn't saying or implying that he's meant to be a Wizard, btw.
But thanks, for at least kinda vaguely referring to what the Invoker is about. That's more than most have given out.
So, invokers call upon their divine nature? Sure, I can see that then. And they look the part as well, someone said?
Invokers are Old Testament prophets, basically. They use rods and staves to symbolize the sovereignty of their gods, and call down fire from the heavens to smith their enemies. Think Moses and Elijah in a fantasy setting, and you probably have a great idea of what they're like.
Why do you see Conan as a multiclass rogue in 4e? I have only skimmed the 4e PH but my understanding is that rogue powers work only with light weapons while Conan uses big swords and axes with which these would not work. Also anybody can pick up skills like stealth and fighters already get the physical one which takes care of his super climbing. What does 4e rogue multiclass give the build besides the name association with Conan's time as a thief?
Rogue multiclass as the 4e Conan concept seems a holdover to old edition mechanics when that was how you could simulate Conan's skills (plus the fact that he was a thief).
You know what? You're absolutely right.
Fighter trained in Stealth, Athletics, Endurance, Nature, Perception, Intimidate maybe also Insight, cover just about anything Conan might do. He might even be a Battlerager fighter. He might be multiclassed as Ranger for Hunter's Quarry (and this would get him the training in Nature or Stealth).
And the inspiration for the Wizard in D&D was never a fantasy wizard - it was a person copied from the real world: the angry, book-loving nerd that really wished that he could kill you with his brain.
There is probably some very brutal truth to that, but there are some fantasy wizards that D&D could draw from just fine.
Sure, the D&D model for the Wizard was never anything like the way Gandalf or his fellow "wizards" rolled in The Lord of the Rings. Heck, they called them "Magic-users" back in the day - not Wizards. They drew much more from some romantic notions of Merlin the Magician, Rasputin, and even some implications from C.S. Lewis. The notion was of an Arcane Academic who, though years of study of arcane formula and forbidden secrets could manipulate the fabric of the universe for good or for ill. Thanks to Dragonlance, Raistlin Majere became the signature character for the Magic-user.
Invoker is much more along the lines of what Gandalf was. The comparisons to Old Testament prophets such as Elijah and Moses are apt. The similiarity is no coincidence considering the history, interviews, and notes pertaining to Tolkein's writings.
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Last edited by mlund; 10th July 2009 at 10:09 PM..
Yeah all the confusion with Gandalf and Wizard comes from the simple fact that the majority of the characters in Hobbit/LotR thought he was a Wizard. He was never a Wizard but, obviously, the way he appeared and used magic etc was very similar to what a real Wizard would be like in Middle Earth.... ipso facto Gandalf is a Wizard 'role model' without being a Wizard
But the book learning stuff has to come from good old Vance doesn't it.
Yeah all the confusion with Gandalf and Wizard comes from the simple fact that the majority of the characters in Hobbit/LotR thought he was a Wizard.
He was a Wizard, so much as that definition applied to Middle Earth. There were all of 5 Wizards in that world. They were all immortal servants of the divine - a race called Maia. Wizard was not a job or a character class in Middle Earth, but a Race. On top of that, pretty much all magic in the setting was Racial, not Professional - Elves, Angels, and Dunedain as opposed to Warlocks, Wizards, and Clerics.
Note how in Dungeons and Dragons characters we now call "Wizards" were originally called "Magic-users," as a class, not Wizards. Then they were called "Mages" - still not Wizards. It wasn't until 3rd Edition the class was finally called "Wizard."
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He was never a Wizard but, obviously, the way he appeared and used magic etc was very similar to what a real Wizard would be like in Middle Earth....
His appearance, scholarship, wisdom, and equipment were a model for Wizards. His spells and background, however, were definitely not. They are also extremely contrary to the general identity of Wizards in fiction prior to The Lord of the Rings.
Mearls gets alot of flack at times (at least around here he has) but I really dig his perspective. He knows his oldschool themes/modules/tropes to a "T" (and I have seen him post occasionaly on some of the OSR blogs-so he follows them to some extent) and then puts his 4E interpretation on these old school ideas/themes/tropes. I've been enjoying his commentary on the various D&D podcasts that I've managed to listen to as well as his articles and such.
So props to Mike!
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I don't know the character that inspired the Avenger, but I get a strong "Solomon Kane" vibe from it.
I've never read any of the Solomon Kane books (and I'm sure you're probably spot on from what I know about the character), but when I think avenger I think of Pale Rider.
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Though he's a two-weapon fighter instead of a great weapon fighter, I always think of Paladin Alexander Anderson when I think of an Avenger. He's fast, he teleports, he likes to fight opponents one on one and uses powers to isolate and cut them off from their allies and sources of magic. Also, he's Unaligned while working for an (ostensibly) Lawful Good organization.
Mike's a little to gamist at times for me, and I don't think I can forgive him after making the 4e Monster Manual 90% useless to me (), but he's always got interesting ideas.
As an aside, I like the idea of a Wizard as a "combat librarian."
The idea is that in a world where literacy is rare, those who can control words -- the written language -- shape reality. Runes in the Norse, or philosophers and scholars in the Greek, or Egyptian heiroglyphics, or Buddhist words of power, or even the "truename" motif...
This is the most appealing archetype of the D&D wizard to me.
The 4e wizard doesn't really fill this role, but if they ever pump out an archivist, chances are that it will.
I think it's worth pointing out that the terms "wizard", "mage", "sorcerer", "invoker", etc are pretty much interchangeable outside of the D&D game. They have distinct meanings for us gamers, but do not in literature, myth, and in mainstream public opinion.
It's not like, within the story of Middle-Earth, there are some learned elves discussing what to call Gandalf.
Elf 1: Well, I know we all call him a wizard, but really, if you think about it, he's actually an invoker.
Elf 2: Really? Wizard works fine for me, although I've always thought of the old stormcrow as more of a sorcerer . . .
Gandalf IS a wizard, because that's what he is called in Tolkien's works. I've certainly used him as inspiration for PC and NPC characters, and I'm sure I'm not alone. But if you want to try and model his powers and abilities within the D&D game, you probably should choose the invoker class rather than the wizard class.
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