General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
However, as Sony's eReader and Kindle, etc... become more and more... accessible (Kindle on the iPhone now for free), the whole 'print' issue is going to become moot.
People will read what's new, what's being supported, what's happening now.
However, a movie or tv show could easily bring one of those old bastiches back from the grave.
With modern audience, to discount the internet... well, on an electronic message board, doesn't seem completely feasible.
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Originally Posted by Mercutio01
Check the years on most of those 1999 (re-issues after the other went out of print) and later or 1984 and earlier (initial print runs). Also consider that there was no such thing as Amazon, wikipedia, or, hell, the internet with which to find those books. There were bookstores and word of mouth.
So, sure, I'll eat the "out of print." However I'll replace it with "widely unavailable." Just for comparison of books available now, I just did a search at four local Barnes and Noble (based on my ZIP code of Revere, MA) for both Leiber and Vance. In stock at the stores are Lankhmar Book 1 and Book 2. Literally none of Vance's work, and nothing else by Leiber. I also checked the Boston Public Library for "The Dying Earth." The Boston Public Library has exactly 2 copies, neither of which can be checked out of the library.
You'll note the resurgence of pulp fiction authors in the late 90's and early 00's, authors most people coming of age in the 80s and early 90s hadn't heard of because the books weren't in current printing.
With modern audience, to discount the internet... well, on an electronic message board, doesn't seem completely feasible.
Sure. I was talking more about what was available when I was first getting into roleplaying, kind of piggy-backing a bit on the "generation gap" thread, than meaning currently.
I think in 10 years people might look back at Keith Baker's movie inspiration list and go, "Huh?" Especially for things like "Brotherhood of the Wolf" and "The Name of the Rose." Heck, I'd be shocked if more than a few people had ever watched "Casablanca" or "The Maltese Falcon" which exist more as names than actual entities to many people.
To be fair, Jack Vance is currently coming into a bit of a renaissance. He's got a massive retrospective tome out (which I am squirreling pennies away to buy), and there are a number of authors doing "Vancian" fiction in the magazines. For example there is Subterranean Press which is releasing "Songs of the Dying Earth" as I write this which is a big tribute book of Vance style prose set in the Dying Earth.
But, let's be honest here. Jack Vance is a very, very obscure writer that very few outside of D&D gamers have ever heard of. I love his stuff, but, let's not kid ourselves here.
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Wow, lots of love for Lloyd Alexander. Glad to see that other people liked him too. In YA fantasy, I also really loved Susan Cooper's The Dark Is Rising sequence.
Of the "classic D&D authors," the only one I've read is Moorcock, and only because I heard of him through D&D.
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I've long wanted to read Vance's fantasy stuff but never have. I regularly look at the V section of the Sci-Fi and fantasy and the fiction sections of my libraries but I've only ever found his Demon Princes sci-fi books. Zelazny no longer shows up there either, or just one or two books of his.
Lloyd Alexander I avidly read in grade school and was able to listen to them recently on audio CDs from the library.
Well, it makes sense that Vance and Leiber would be hard to find at a local bookstore/library.
There's a finite amount of space and with new books constantly being released, older authors unless they are insanely popular or are copied will not be remembered.
Sure. I was talking more about what was available when I was first getting into roleplaying, kind of piggy-backing a bit on the "generation gap" thread, than meaning currently.
I think in 10 years people might look back at Keith Baker's movie inspiration list and go, "Huh?" Especially for things like "Brotherhood of the Wolf" and "The Name of the Rose." Heck, I'd be shocked if more than a few people had ever watched "Casablanca" or "The Maltese Falcon" which exist more as names than actual entities to many people.
The remakes of them by Michael Bay will bring those movies back to the public consciousness.
But in terms of your own 'getitng into RPG's.', hell, how about Clark Ashton Smith eh? Eh? I'm getting my hardcopies as they're being reprinted by the old Night Shade Books.
I know we all think of our campaigns and games as thrilling A+ stuff, but in reality the average DM and Players aren't high talent authors/actors.
I'd say the majority of players out there have on numerous occasions faced evil wizards that are pretty much just like the performance by Irons... Overacted caricatures complete with insane overcomplicated plots.
The movie was bad, I wont argue that, but I kind of feel like it represents the average D&D campaign out there.
My new favourite televisual representation of D&D has to be Krod Mandoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire!
The remakes of them by Michael Bay will bring those movies back to the public consciousness.
But in terms of your own 'getitng into RPG's.', hell, how about Clark Ashton Smith eh? Eh? I'm getting my hardcopies as they're being reprinted by the old Night Shade Books.
I have yet to see one of those in a brick-and-mortar bookstore, and I've been looking. I keep hoping some will pop up on Project Gutenberg sometime in the near future.
As a 42 year-old who started gaming in 1979 (Basic/AD&D and Traveller) when I was a lad my list of inspirations were only partially covered in Appendix N of the 1e DMG.
It wasn't until a few years ago that Erik Mona inspired me to fill in the gaps of my Appendix N reading queue. I picked up the following from Amazon:
I am currently in process of collecting all of the Thieves World books (a couple more and I will start reading through in order).
Author's not mentioned:
Anne McCaffrey
Ursala LeGuin (if you haven't read the Earthsea Trilogy, boot to the head).
Emma Bull
Terri Windling (editor on the The Boardertown town series. Essential urban fantasy reading)
Charles DeLint
Frank Herbert (Dune warped my 10 year-old brain)
Elizabeth Moon (The Deed of Paksenarrion is the template for my wife's Paladins).
William Morris (The House of the Wolfings was an influence on Tolkien).
Neil Gaiman (anything)
Jim Butcher (Dresden Files should be a primer on what not to do in the Feywild)
Brothers Grimm (the origional stuff, not the Disney crap)
Richard Burton (The Arabian Nights: Tales from a Thousand and One Nights)
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The movie was bad, I wont argue that, but I kind of feel like it represents the average D&D campaign out there.
The average campaign is overused cliche plots and poorly acted caricature villains, opposed by equally poorly acted random hodgepodge heroes that stick together and do things... just because.
Don't forget scantily clad wenches! (or manches, or whatever the male version of a wench is... don't want to be politically incorrect).
Weird.... My disclaimer about political correctness was longer than my original statement. What kind of world is this!?!?!?!?!?
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I wonder if the actual wizard had any wizardy inspiration. Not that cribbing Gandalf for the Invoker makes him illegal to use as a wizard, of course, but D&D wizards haven't been very Gandalf-y ever.
Look to Vance's Dying Earth stories and Camp & Pratt's "Harold Shea" (as well as Camp's Fallible Fiend and "Reluctant King" stories) to find direct inspiration for the D&D wizard.
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From my perspective wanting less in the way of rules constraints comes from being a veteran Game Master who feels confident that more good material comes from imagination and player interaction with the environment than from textbook rules material.
more words of wisdom:
Rashness and foolhardiness are harbingers of death, as is timidity, in such adventure setting.
Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister
First and foremost, munchkinism arose as a contemporary of the OD&D game. Nothing in the rules of that or any other version of the game was needed to make it flourish.
There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.
[E]xperience has taught me that everyone has their own gaming preferences, and it is not a matter of "good" or "bad" in all, save in light of one's own preferences.
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__________________ Words of wisdom from Gary Gygax:
From my perspective wanting less in the way of rules constraints comes from being a veteran Game Master who feels confident that more good material comes from imagination and player interaction with the environment than from textbook rules material.
more words of wisdom:
Rashness and foolhardiness are harbingers of death, as is timidity, in such adventure setting.
Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister
First and foremost, munchkinism arose as a contemporary of the OD&D game. Nothing in the rules of that or any other version of the game was needed to make it flourish.
There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.
[E]xperience has taught me that everyone has their own gaming preferences, and it is not a matter of "good" or "bad" in all, save in light of one's own preferences.
So, when I went to my local used bookstore to sell off some of my old 3.X stuff (it was too much clutter), I picked up a copy of the first Lankhmar book and the first Elric book. So far, I don't know how much I think of Moorcock as a writer, but Leiber seems excellent.
I was once an aspiring creative writing major, and Moorcock's book in the first few pages broke so many things we were taught. The tense was seemingly randomly changed, point of view has changed, there are so many adverbs and awkward run on sentences. Looking at it from that direction, it's just crazy. At first I wasn't sure if I could read it, but I've made my way through it a bit, and I can't really say I don't like it. I can't say I totally like it either (yet), but I certainly like it more than I dislike it.
I've only read of a few pages of the Lankhmar book, and so far I'm impressed with Leiber. He has a much clearer, and prettier, writing style.
It's cool to me that this thread could list so many books for me to look into. My girlfriend, who has no interest in D&D, is a big fan of the Lloyd Alexander books, and just randomly mentioned them to me the other day. I mentioned that I was reading about them in relation to D&D, and I'll probably borrow those from her some day.
But anyway.
I figured it'd be cool to let fans of the old school know that a young dude of the new school is checking out their recommendations.
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I find the idea of Vance as "obscure" to be beyond bizarre. Not only is he namedropped repeatedly in AD&D, where his "ioun stones" are appropriated and for which he supplied a framework for spellcasting, and not only was he cited as a direct inspiration for Sechi's Talislanta game, but there is a Dying Earth Role-Playing Game written by Robin Laws, John Snead, and Peter Freeman with its own magazine. But that's not all... there's also a GURPS sourcebook, GURPS Planet of Adventure, based on Vance's planetary romances. Fire-and-forget spellcasting is known in RPG circles as "Vancian" magic. Short of getting his own sitcom on the Disney Channel, what could he do to be less obscure?
As for the Invoker/Gandalf... We all know who the real inspiration for the Invoker is...
Short of getting his own sitcom on the Disney Channel, what could he do to be less obscure?
He would be less obscure if he was known or discussed outside the niche market of roleplaying gamers. There's a big leap in fame between "mentioned* in several roleplaying games, most of them pretty obscure even inside that market" and "sitcom on the Disney Channel". lol
*I wouldn't even really count D&D as a game that "mentions" Vance. Sure, several items and the spellcasting system were inspired by his works, but unless you already knew about him, how would this make him more well known? I personally didn't know ioun stones were a Vance thing until this thread, and I only knew what "Vancian magic" meant by context until I read Dying Earth this spring.
I find the idea of Vance as "obscure" to be beyond bizarre. Not only is he namedropped repeatedly in AD&D
I played exactly one adventure in AD&D at age 11 in 1990. The first gaming book I owned was "Price of Freedom" and the first D&D book was "The Complete Thief" for 2E. AD&D as a source wasn't in print at the time I started gaming.
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Sechi's Talislanta game
Eh? Never heard of it.
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Dying Earth Role-Playing Game written by Robin Laws, John Snead, and Peter Freeman with its own magazine.
Until a few years ago, I'd never even heard the title of Vance's work. I knew he was a writer that had his magic system pilfered for D&D, but beyond that? Nada.
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there's also a GURPS sourcebook, GURPS Planet of Adventure, based on Vance's planetary romances.
Never used GURPS. Never been interested in the game system. I think if I went out onto the streets of Boston and mentioned D&D to everyone I met and then GURPS to everyone I met, say 100 people in a few minutes, maybe one or two people would recognize GURPS and 50 or 60 would know D&D. Citing GURPS as a way to fight a claim of obscurity is absurd.
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Fire-and-forget spellcasting is known in RPG circles as "Vancian" magic.
Indeed, that's the only way I'd ever even heard of Vance.
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Originally Posted by amysrevenge
He would be less obscure if he was known or discussed outside the niche market of roleplaying gamers. There's a big leap in fame between "mentioned* in several roleplaying games, most of them pretty obscure even inside that market" and "sitcom on the Disney Channel". lol
Exactly.
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I only knew what "Vancian magic" meant by context until I read Dying Earth this spring.
Ditto (well, partially. I just finished Dying Earth and am part way through "The Eyes of Overworld" (which I find is a much better read anyway).
*I wouldn't even really count D&D as a game that "mentions" Vance. Sure, several items and the spellcasting system were inspired by his works, but unless you already knew about him, how would this make him more well known?
Well, apart from Appendix N, and being "mentioned" in the AD&D DMG Credits and Acknowledgements, Jack Vance is "mentioned" by name on p.40 of the rulebook as the inspiration of the magic system and on p.112 under ongoing campaigns. Eyes of the Overlord and Planet of Adventure are "mentioned." I suppose technically you can claim AD&D is not D&D.
Amazon.com: Tales of the Dying Earth: Jack Vance:... 
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