Dragon Magazine Class Acts: Ranger

[Cadfan]

1. Archer rangers really ought to be on the front lines anyways, or at least skirmishing around, to get that Prime Shot advantage. And yes, to absorb some damage and keep the heat on the melee guys a little lighter. They just have the convenient option to NOT be on the front lines if they decide they don't want to be.

2. Most of the powers are fine, not particular great or terrible, but usable. Though I don't like the level 6 one. Its another one of those ones that can lead to outcries about the martial power source being too magical. I can only really think of three or so of those in the entire game, but I don't particularly like them and I really, really don't like listening to people try to make Grand Unified Theorems about 4e out of their presence.

[Klaus]

1) yeah, but that's not how I see them played, usually.

[Mad Mac]

Being a ranged character has it's own advantages. In particular, being a Ranger with a powerful missle weapon that outranges most spells and special attacks, coupled with the mobility to outright avoid melee attackers rather easily allows Bow Rangers to spend most of the battle handing out massive damage in relative safety. They can also afford to dump strength in order to pump Dex and Wis as high as possible, compared to two-blade rangers.

Melee Rangers aren't bad by any means, but they have a lot more things to juggle in both character building and combat (Trying to balance Strength, Dex and Wis so their AC doesn't tank, trying to dish out their heavy damage without being splatted or nullified by status effects, do you want ranged potential as a backup? ect)

Of course, it probably helps that optimizing a bow ranger is as easy as selecting, Race=Elf.

[WalterKovacs]

On the archer ranger: It has a few advantages over the archer ranger. Initially, it was that archers had the elf, with the TWF ranger didn't really have the right race (although now it has both the longtooth and the half-orc). Secondly, an archer can pump dex and wisdom, while the two weapon fighter has to either invest in con and spend feats on armor, or has to invest in dexterity. This either means a mediocre AC, or a mediocre wisdom. On top of all that, if the TWF is using his ability to dual wield non-off hand weapons, he'll need to be upgrading both constantly, eating up a lot of his magic budget compared to the archer ranger.

As for this article ... I really like the powers, although it took me a couple glances to notice. Nearly all the encounter powers (especially the higher level ones) are interupts ... and they have no triggers, meaning you can decide to do them whenever you want. Definitely makes for an interesting concept for the TWF ranger as you basically never stop attacking ... making an extra 2 attacks during the round after you made however many during your turn. This is especially nasty for hybrid rangers. A rogue/ranger can use these powers as a means of dealing quarry damage after hitting with a rogue power for sneak attack on his turn.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The Hybrid Synergy is a good catch. I wonder if this is a problem or if it's good?

I suppose it's not too broken. You deal more damage in a shorter time frame, but not overall more damage - it are still encounter powers, after all.

[Remathilis]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

The Hybrid Synergy is a good catch. I wonder if this is a problem or if it's good?

I suppose it's not too broken. You deal more damage in a shorter time frame, but not overall more damage - it are still encounter powers, after all.

Faster damage = faster death = less healing surges spent defending

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Remathilis

Faster damage = faster death = less healing surges spent defending

Under the assumption that you are able to direct your attacks against one target and don't have to split. A fair one, I suppose. We're talking Strikers, not Defender or Controller.

[Vendark]

Originally Posted by WalterKovacs

Nearly all the encounter powers (especially the higher level ones) are interupts ... and they have no triggers, meaning you can decide to do them whenever you want.

It's probably a copy/paste error. Immediate actions always have triggers. The ones that don't are likely meant to be standard actions.

[MatthewJHanson]

I'd like to suggests that people interested in the Archery v. TWF debate fork the thread.

Originally Posted by Vendark

It's probably a copy/paste error. Immediate actions always have triggers. The ones that don't are likely meant to be standard actions.

This was also my impression.

Also curious about bending branch. Can anybody else think of utilities that allow you to make a basic attack? I thought the point of them being utilities was that you didn't attack (or they would be attack powers). Bending branch + virtue of cunning bard?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by MatthewJHanson

I'd like to suggests that people interested in the Archery v. TWF debate fork the thread.



This was also my impression.

Also curious about bending branch. Can anybody else think of utilities that allow you to make a basic attack? I thought the point of them being utilities was that you didn't attack (or they would be attack powers). Bending branch + virtue of cunning bard?

I don't know any off-hand, and I am not a fan of it. I also don't like the Utility that deals ongoing damage.

[Phaezen]

From Andy Collins here it looks like they are revising the article and will be releasing an errated/corrected version later this week

[neuronphaser]

Originally Posted by Jack99

Because the CO boards base their "knowledge" and "ratings" on math and dps, instead of actual play. I can assure you the archer ranger is a far cry from underpowered. In fact, it may be the best striker around. And when I say best, I am not talking about dps, but overall steady chance, chance to die, utility for group, etc.

Seriously, saying an arched ranger doesn't work with the other PBH classes makes me wonder if you have 1) played one 2) seen one in play or 3) picked up the wrong game and are playing Heroquest 4e. Your analysis about healing surges is borderline funny though, but it lacks perspective.

Agreed. Actual play: I used Kobold Hall, and my players had picked some really oddball characters for the playtest, including a ranged-heavy group.

It was a tough fight, but their ability to fight on the run and really spread out pretty much rocked the dragons' world.

In fact, the melee-focused design of 4e seems to make archers extremely good if they are mobile: they can act as artillery monsters, they avoid tons of AOE attacks, and if they are fast enough (Elf, anyone?) they can move in and dump potions or provide other aid as necessary and then get out again.

Sub-optimal maths =/= sub-optimal tactics

[Shroomy]

Originally Posted by Phaezen

From Andy Collins here it looks like they are revising the article and will be releasing an errated/corrected version later this week

Its good that they acknowledged their mistake and even better that their going to fix the PDF release before the powers are added to the DDI databases. I'm hoping for a little extra reading tonight.

[Rechan]

Collins' reaction seems a bit strong. What was broken?

[Shroomy]

Originally Posted by Rechan

Collins' reaction seems a bit strong. What was broken?

Its more of a basic rules thing. The main problem is that many of the attack powers are immediate interrupts without any triggers; some people also have issues with Utility Powers that grant attacks and an encounter powers that includes a save ends condition.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

My [Experience] as well. I've created a TWF ranger, in my catalog of characters, but I've never seen one played in 4E. Every 4E ranger I've seen in action was an archer.

I had always seen archers as well, but my most recent campaign has a dwarf ranger with two craghammers. It's really cool.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Shroomy

Its more of a basic rules thing. The main problem is that many of the attack powers are immediate interrupts without any triggers; some people also have issues with Utility Powers that grant attacks and an encounter powers that includes a save ends condition.

Right. I saw this immediately when I read it the first time. Interrupts with no triggers? Wha...? . Good for WoTC to step up and take a strong stance and I think Collins' over the top reaction was good! It tells me that they give a you-now-what about fixing obvious errors.

I like Collins' reaction.

[LightPhoenix]

What's interesting to me is that Bruce Cordell is listed as the author. I wouldn't think that he'd make such egregious mistakes in an article. I'm wondering if perhaps somewhere along the line an incomplete version got used instead of a completed version. The fact that it would take some time to fix suggests to me it may have been early on in the process.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Shroomy

an encounter powers that includes a save ends condition.

I would think an encounter power is the appropriate place for a save ends condition. It's not like the martial classes don't have powers that these things.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Rechan

I would think an encounter power is the appropriate place for a save ends condition. It's not like the martial classes don't have powers that these things.

They do? Certainly not many. In fact, there are only two save ends encoutner powers I can remember off hand - Fire Shourd and the Plane Shifters Paragon Path encounter attack power.