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Regardless, the point of it being specifically purchasing highlights an important point: your relevance as a D&D player to companies making this stuff is based on how willing you are to buy stuff. If you are already satisfied with your current collection, you have written yourself out of the equation of relevance. Still, in theory this shouldn't matter because, after all, you're satisfied with your collection. Mr. Goodman is, if nothing else, a very savvy business man and has rightly detected the correlation between internet user posts and resulting purchases/non-purchases (ie: nearly unrelated).
Generally speaking, that argument only holds water if the people not buying your stuff (you being a publisher) aren't buying anything and have no money, which is generally untrue. If you could find a way to win over the people currently uninterested in your stuff so that they would spend their money on your stuff, you would. Their relevance doesn't decrease with your inability to capture them as customers. Note that he doesn't actually claim that customers at FLGSs aren't split, just that retailers are satisfied and some players are excited.
Mr. Goodman is, if nothing else, a very savvy business man and has rightly detected the correlation between internet user posts and resulting purchases/non-purchases (ie: nearly unrelated).
So why did Necromancer run into the issues that Clark recently posted about?
To me it is a simple issue of Joesph's savvy including being in exactly the right niche for sales to the 4E market.
Separately, has there EVER been any claim by anyone that 3E is selling as well now as 4E is selling now??? It seems a total red herring argument point to me. Is this where the lines are now being drawn? Congratulations to 4E, the 1 year old game is outselling the 10 year old out-of-print game.
I agreed with 90% of what he said. But I thought pointing at game stores as some kind of proof that the divide is purely an on-line phenomena was silly. Particularly as game stores continue to dwindle and die and be less and less a part of the overall market.
I very much agree that 4E has tapped into a lot of new players. And that certainly off-sets the divide to some degree. It remains to be seen when these new fad gamers will start spending money month after month and how many will have moved on to some other fad within the next couple years. Being an easy grab-and-go game is a double-edged sword.
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As an extension of that, if you tell me that any game is the same just because you roleplay the same, then as far as I am concerned, you don't get the point.
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Yes, there have been numerous threads every time there is even a hint that the amazon sales ranks tip in favor of 3.5 over 4e (even when it turns out to not be true), so people really are questioning that 3.5 is outselling 4e. It is one of the many reasons threads like this - where people alternate between questioning how profitable someone running a business REALLY is and then criticizing them for trying to be more profitable- become tiresome..
As for wotc's ability to win people over, it's all about how willing they are to be won over. If someone is a gamer with very specific tastes, extremely discerning in the quality of a book, and unwilling to buy any book or other product if it A) costs the slightest bit too much or B) fails to meet the specific tastes or exacting standards, it is EXTREMELY hardto market to that gamer. Even if the argument is that these new players are so fad driven that they will shrivel away as quickly as they come (an argument with even LESS factual support than other arguments in this thread), the savvy gamer would be competing with the fad market for ability to appeal to. The savvy gamer would have to show that the effort to consistently appeal to them is a better return on investment than just searching for a new fad to cater to. If this new audience is not, in fact, driven exclusively by fad markets but is a new demographic that consistently spends more money, then the previous set of gamers will have become completely edged out.
WotC and goodman are a business. Goodman has the guts to admit what nobody else will: he makes what sells. He accepts, and doesn't belabor, that what he prefers is not what sells. If you are someone who considers that kind of attitude a flaw or even unacceptable, congratulations! you might not be worth making products to appeal to.
edit: forgot to complete one of my sentences.
Last edited by Badwe; 13th July 2009 at 08:51 PM..
ultimately the order of magnitude argument is one that would probably be doubted by avid 3.5 fans/4e unfans even if he spelled it out to the penny. This should give you an idea of my skepticism towards their skepticism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badwe
Yes, there have been numerous threads every time there is even a hint that the amazon sales ranks tip in favor of 3.5 over 4e (even when it turns out to not be true), so people really are questioning that 3.5 is outselling 4e. It is one of the many reasons threads like this - where people alternate between questioning how profitable someone running a business REALLY is and then criticizing them for trying to be more profitable- become tiresome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badwe
WotC and goodman are a business. Goodman has the guts to admit what nobody else will: he makes what sells. He accepts, and doesn't belabor, that what he prefers is not what sells. If you are someone who considers that kind of attitude a flaw or even unacceptable, congratulations! you might not be worth making products to appeal to.
I'm not seeing who in this thread you seem to believe you are debating. Could you please quote people's posts for the above arguments? I'm afraid you've lost me.
I think it's been a while since you could make a decent buck of 1e
Even during the days of 2E AD&D, some of my friends who were hardcore 1E AD&D fans (who were not interested in 2E at all), still continued buying new modules and fluff-heavy/crunch-lite splatbooks over the 2E era. 2E stuff was relatively easy to change back to 1E, such as converting back the THAC0 numbers for example. Several friends continued on buying many "new" 2E Forgotten Realms splats + modules and the few "new" 2E Greyhawk modules released, for use in their 1E AD&D games.
So even with a new edition (ie. 2E AD&D), some hardcore fans of the previous edition (ie. 1E AD&D) were still buying a lot of "new" edition stuff for their previous edition games.
This time around, it would be interesting to see how many hardcore 3E/3.5E fans are buying 4E splatbooks and/or adventure modules for use in their 3E/3.5E games. (I haven't tried converting any 4E modules to the 3.5E ruleset).
Even during the days of 2E AD&D, some of my friends who were hardcore 1E AD&D fans (who were not interested in 2E at all), still continued buying new modules and fluff-heavy/crunch-lite splatbooks over the 2E era. 2E stuff was relatively easy to change back to 1E, such as converting back the THAC0 numbers for example. Several friends continued on buying many "new" 2E Forgotten Realms splats + modules and the few "new" 2E Greyhawk modules released, for use in their 1E AD&D games.
So even with a new edition (ie. 2E AD&D), some hardcore fans of the previous edition (ie. 1E AD&D) were still buying a lot of "new" edition stuff for their previous edition games.
I am not sure why you quoted me.
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I find Joseph Goodman's interview quite interesting especially since my personal spending habits are well reflected in it.
I spent quite a bit on 3rd edition when it first came out and I spend quite a bit less on 4th edition now but that has nothing to do with the relative strengths and quality of the two editions.
3rd edition was a "perfect storm" for me. It came at a time when I had loads of disposable income and after years of playing the same OoP edition (1st), I was receptive, ready for a new edition and excited about playing on a supported edition again. All the 3rd party products available added to the excitement and I found myself buying way more than I could possible use.
When 4th edition came out, I was still receptive but had come to the realization that with 3rd edition I had bought way too much so I decided to take it easy this time around.
But had 4th edition not been released, Wizards wouldn't have gotten any more money from me since I had already stopped buying 3rd edition for a couple years.
So, this is my long winded way of saying I understand when he talks about the early spike of 3rd edition sales and I can also understand why it may not be happening for 4th edition.
I was commenting on how it was possible to make a buck from 1E players, for many years after 1E fell by the wayside.
Unless your friends numbered in the thousands, I doubt you could make a living of it, which was the point, since it was in responce to someone finding it funny that GG was doing 4e when he prefers another edition.
Also, making a buck of 1e is not quite the same as making a buck of 1e players.
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
Unless your friends numbered in the thousands, I doubt you could make a living of it, which was the point, since it was in responce to someone finding it funny that GG was doing 4e when he prefers another edition.
Also, making a buck of 1e is not quite the same as making a buck of 1e players.
These days I would certainly agree it would be hard to make a buck from 1E players and 1E AD&D itself.
Though back in the early days of 2E (ie. from 1989 to 1993/1994), it was still possible for TSR to make some bucks from 1E players with some of the 2E fluff-heavy/crunch-lite splatbooks, and some of the 2E Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk stuff. By the time it was 3E/3.5E, very few of my hardcore 1E AD&D friends bought any "new" D&D stuff. Even my friends who were hardcore 1E/2E Forgotten Realms fans, they largely stopped buying any FR books. They didn't like the direction 3E FR was going.
So even back in 2000-2001, I would probably agree with the assertion that it was hard to make a buck from 1E players, or for that matter 1E AD&D in general. But I disagree with this assertion for the years 1989 to 1993/1994. Between 1995 and 1999, I don't know enough to say one way or the other.
I think it is interesting that Mr. Goodman does not play 4e. Or, at least, does not prefer 4.
Perhaps the fact that Mr Goodman does not play 4e lets him distance him himself from the game. He can then made hard business decisions. There's a saying, "Never sell the things you love."
Bad game stores are a popular meme. It's sort like people trying to convince you of the Easter bunny. I have a hard time believing a good one could exist.
The old The Bookshelf in Ogden, Utah was just okay. It was more of a bookstore-and-everything-else store anyway. I understand it has new owners, though.
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Why is that all the interesting stories about D&D as a business never seem to get told? Everything's always tied up in NDAs, confidential out of court settlements and the like.
By the time everyone involved is too dead to sue, the audience will have gone too, so there'll be no reason to tell the stories anyway.
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The old The Bookshelf in Ogden, Utah was just okay. It was more of a bookstore-and-everything-else store anyway. I understand it has new owners, though.
Yes.
The old owner got an offer for the building it was in, and it was too good to pass up. He sold, and did a "going out of business" sale and retired, but what remained was sold to the manager who started up Bookshelf 2.0.
Considering that manager was someone I never considered a good businessman, it hasn't done all that well. Two months after the switchover, their gaming section had not had anything new in it.
Now back when Tim was running the place and the owner let him, it was a great place to get stuff (back in the 80's early 90's).
Ogden really doesn't have a great RPG place. HeebyJeebies sucks, and Game Grid is mostly a card/mini shop - although They do carry all the 4E stuff (just not much else in RPGs)... and besides I have to say good things about that place, a friend of mine owns it and that is where I get all my 4E books.
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Last edited by Lord Mhoram; 14th July 2009 at 07:21 PM..
I think it is interesting that Mr. Goodman does not play 4e. Or, at least, does not prefer 4. Perhaps the fact that Mr Goodman does not play 4e lets him distance him himself from the game. He can then made hard business decisions. There's a saying, "Never sell the things you love."
I should probably reread the interview, but I remember Goodman saying 4e was not his preferred edition. Actually, quite a bit different from saying he does not play 4e or enjoy 4e, it is just not his favorite.
I prefer 4e over prior editions . . . but I still play and enjoy 3e, and probably would play and enjoy earlier editions if other friends wanted to play.
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I think this is a great interview, largely because it represents an opinion from someone who really has some information on how the edition is selling. Most of what we see on this issue comes from a very small sample size, and beyond that is largely people projecting what they want to be true.
Does Goodman have the last word on it? Obviously not, but his opinion carries a lot more weight with me than someone who's just seeing it from buying (or not buying) product at a particular store.
--Steve
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I play 4E, and it's every bit as much Dungeons and Dragons as any other edition, including the one(s) you play. No more, and no less.
I think this is a great interview, largely because it represents an opinion from someone who really has some information on how the edition is selling. Most of what we see on this issue comes from a very small sample size, and beyond that is largely people projecting what they want to be true.
Does Goodman have the last word on it? Obviously not, but his opinion carries a lot more weight with me than someone who's just seeing it from buying (or not buying) product at a particular store.
--Steve
Well, let's be clear. Joseph has access to Goodman's numbers. I don't believe he can legally have access to WotC's numbers, or even share them if he did. I'm actually a bit surprised that he characterizes the impression of sales by retailers as "satisfied" which does not seem as enthusiastic as I would have hoped for an edition just a year out of the gate. I wonder if spreading the core material out over a few years (PH, 1, 2, 3, etc., DMG 1, 2, 3, etc.) has caused a whole different perception among retailers than the 3.XE era expectations engendered?
I wonder if spreading the core material out over a few years (PH, 1, 2, 3, etc., DMG 1, 2, 3, etc.) has caused a whole different perception among retailers than the 3.XE era expectations engendered?
Very good point, and combined with DDi is certainly a better business model than selling heaps in the first year an bog all after.
Very good point, and combined with DDi is certainly a better business model than selling heaps in the first year an bog all after.
I often forget to consider how the DDI might be either increasing print sales due to tempting people with info, bits and pieces or decreasing print sales because it gives away too much.
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