Dragon Magazine (Sub) Design & Development - Psionics

[TheWyrd]

Been thinking about how the builds of the various different psionic classes will work out as compared against the way 3e (more specifically 3.5) spead things out.

Ignoring the monk which is basically an add-on, we know that the Psionic has a Telepathy build and a Telekinetic build.

If they carry across the Psychic Warrior I can see them putting the Psychometabolic Build and Clairsentience Build. Both of those were existing options with Claw based psychic warriors or insight based psychic warriors.

Everyone seems pretty sure that the Soul Knife is going to be an option. Honestly, with the monk as a Psionic striker already, I'd be pleased to see the Soulknife as a seperate build for the class.

[lutecius]

Originally Posted by Remathilis

Would you be willing to pay $9.95 a month for such re-writes?

Probably not, but I'd buy the books. I'm just not into subscriptions or pre-orders. As a rule, I don't buy stuff sight unseen. Anyway the ddi would also have to offer a little more than that, like the long awaited virtual tabletop and more usable crunch (previews or design & development articles may be interesting but they are essentially marketing and thus should be free)

Originally Posted by Pseudopsyche

The Power books provide a clear opportunity for WotC to release more mechanically sophisticated builds of existing classes. The Battlerager fighter and the Beastmaster ranger are already two examples of builds that are more mechanically involved than the PH1 builds.

But they don't break the mold like the psion does. I am not interested in more mechanically involved builds, I want to steer away from the rigid and artificial encounter/daily power structure, especially for non-spellcasters. The psion is a step in that direction but I don't think anything similar could be done with the existing classes (like KM suggested) without rewriting the powers themselves.

Originally Posted by FireLance

I think it will be possible to introduce new mechanics into old classes simply by publishing new alternate class features, such as the battlerage vigor fighter and the beastmaster ranger in Martial Power. I think it is entirely possible to have a "fighter" with mostly at-will abilities and an augment-like mechanic for encounter and/or daily powers (using adrenaline points and/or luck points) released in PH4 or Martial Power 2.

The fighter's exploits were not meant to be augmented and some combos were not meant to be used more than once per encounter/per day, so implementing a point system on top of the current power list would certainly create balance issues.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by TheWyrd

Everyone seems pretty sure that the Soul Knife is going to be an option. Honestly, with the monk as a Psionic striker already, I'd be pleased to see the Soulknife as a seperate build for the class.

IMO, the Soul Knife has only one thing that differentiates himself from any other class: he can make the soul knife weapon.

So, I anticipate this schtick is going to get eaten by another class. Probably firmly implanted in the Psychic Warrior, as one of the starter builds.

[FireLance]

Originally Posted by lutecius

The fighter's exploits were not meant to be augmented and some combos were not meant to be used more than once per encounter/per day, so implementing a point system on top of the current power list would certainly create balance issues.

I think the basic implementation would probably involve tagging augmentable powers with the Adrenaline or whatever keyword, and have a rule that says something along the lines of "whenever you take a heroic/paragon/epic Adrenaline power, you get 2/4/6 adrenaline points". A fighter with more Adrenaline powers would have more flexibility with respect to how he spends his adrenaline points, but one with just a single Adrenaline power can augment it to encounter power level only once per encounter.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Rechan

IMO, the Soul Knife has only one thing that differentiates himself from any other class: he can make the soul knife weapon.

So, I anticipate this schtick is going to get eaten by another class. Probably firmly implanted in the Psychic Warrior, as one of the starter builds.

I'm not even sure a full build is necessary, to be honest, though it's certainly viable. I think a few at-will powers that form and attack with the knife, perhaps a few feats or utility powers to augment it, and then a paragon path based around it, would work just fine.

[Kamikaze Midget]

I'm not even sure a full build is necessary, to be honest, though it's certainly viable. I think a few at-will powers that form and attack with the knife, perhaps a few feats or utility powers to augment it, and then a paragon path based around it, would work just fine.

I could see rolling together the soulknife powers with the lurk's "sneak attack augments" and running with that as a variant monk build or just a variant class feature.

But the monk and the soulknife were already pretty close before the monk was psionic. Now, especially with a few powers, a build, or whatever, they're practically one with each other.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Kamikaze Midget

But the monk and the soulknife were already pretty close before the monk was psionic. Now, especially with a few powers, a build, or whatever, they're practically one with each other.

What I'd really like to see, to be honest, is way to build a "soulknife" from either a psionic striker (be it monk or something else) or a psionic defender. They could each have their own soulknife powers (mechanically different, of course), and the soulknife PrC could be written to accommodate both. (Difficult, for two different roles, but not impossible.)

[Hawke]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

What I'd really like to see, to be honest, is way to build a "soulknife" from either a psionic striker (be it monk or something else) or a psionic defender. They could each have their own soulknife powers (mechanically different, of course), and the soulknife PrC could be written to accommodate both. (Difficult, for two different roles, but not impossible.)

Excellent thought process... I guess the question is, if I created a Sword magic item that allowed you to use a minor action to call it from nothingness, and it automatically increased its abilities with your level... how is that different than your soul knife? What features of a Psionic Soul Knife are a requirement that could not be filled with just a neat uber-item?

I wonder if perhaps the easiest way would be something akin to Dragonmarks, Spellscars, or other multiclass weapons... spend some feats to get the weapon, have access to some specific/neat powers if you want, but allow it to be applied to any class. Looking at some of the items out there, I can see it not being too worrysome about breaking balance (heck, a rogue player of mine just picked up that Invisible Sword).

I'd love to hear from someone that feels a class is necessary, I like being proven wrong =)

[Spatula]

The soulknife seems like a poor fit for an official WotC class. The central shtick - that you can create your primary weapon out of your thoughts - conflicts with the design conceit of being able to use the cool loot that you find. See the 4e warforged's new relationship with armor, for an example. Then again, the same issue applies to the monk's unarmed strikes, so maybe they're moving away from that...

Hm, I just got an idea for a warforged monk that swaps out hands for different unarmed strike effects. "Hold on, let me attach my radiant fist before we open that crypt..."

[mach1.9pants]

Originally Posted by Hawke

I'd love to hear from someone that feels a class is necessary, I like being proven wrong =)

Your wrong 'cos I said so, do you feel good now?

Originally Posted by Spatula

The soulknife seems like a poor fit for an official WotC class. The central shtick - that you can create your primary weapon out of your thoughts - conflicts with the design conceit of being able to use the cool loot that you find. See the 4e warforged's new relationship with armor, for an example. Then again, the same issue applies to the monk's unarmed strikes, so maybe they're moving away from that...

Hm, I just got an idea for a warforged monk that swaps out hands for different unarmed strike effects. "Hold on, let me attach my radiant fist before we open that crypt..."

True but there is no problem, IMO, of having merge rituals which merge powers from magic weapons into your soul knife, fists, metal body etc. And I minor action to swap from your class soul knife properties to the merged soul knife properties. Or something, I'd like that.

Although that would be a lot of calculating for all your powers!

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Spatula

The soulknife seems like a poor fit for an official WotC class. The central shtick - that you can create your primary weapon out of your thoughts - conflicts with the design conceit of being able to use the cool loot that you find.

They managed it with the monk's unarmed attacks. I can see several ways to manage it with the soulknife as well, whether it's a class, a built, a PP, or whatever.

[Hawke]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

They managed it with the monk's unarmed attacks. I can see several ways to manage it with the soulknife as well, whether it's a class, a built, a PP, or whatever.

Agreed...

I wonder about extending the concept beyond a blade - what if the entire schtick of the class is that it is able to create everything it needs (armor, weapons, cloaks, bracers, boots....) with its mind. Okay, maybe not everything... but weapons and armor? Utilize the power points combined with some pretty unique at-wills to shift around your armor & weapons. Sort of like a summoner except "summoning" your personal weapons and armor?

[Rechan]

That would raise the question of item properties/powers/bonuses/etc.

[TheWyrd]

Creating "everything" in equipment starts to take you down the Incarnum road which probably wouldn't be too horrible but if not done right could get Schticky.

Personally, I think the trick to getting the Soulknife to work correctly wtih the 4E 'Kewl Lootz' idea just make sure that the Soulknife (or whatever main class it is) is an implement based class. Set the implement to something that doesn't require it to be held in your hands. 3E had 3rd Eyes and Crowns that would fit this nicely.

An alternative way to do it would be to make the Soul Knife a class feature that can be used as a basic attack. In the end though, I expect it to be a Psychic warrior at will implement power that can be augmented.

[Fallen Seraph]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

They managed it with the monk's unarmed attacks. I can see several ways to manage it with the soulknife as well, whether it's a class, a built, a PP, or whatever.

The one that pops to mind for me is that you need to wield and study the weapon and understand how it works, feels, etc. this ingrains it in your mind and from that can generate mindblade replication of it.

As for how it would come back, my personal preference would be that is is a Feat (Feat Tree) for any Psionic Class. It would allow you to generate mindblades, with maybe special properties with more feats or some such (using the above mentioned method, the weapons allowed would be whatever you are trained in). It would also be usable as a Implement for Psionic Disciplines.

[Cadfan]

The problem with making a soulblade a thematic property of a handful of powers is that it splits the class. If you end up taking a few powers that are NOT soulblade powers, you'll need to carry a weapon. If you're carrying a weapon anyway, the biggest draw of having a soulblade is negated. Plus the class risks getting split in its focus, as you'll want the best weapon possible for your weapon attacks, and then the best whatever for the soulblade attacks.

Making the soulblade into a paragon path would work, though. Just make one of the level 11 features mimic the text from the monk's unarmed strike, but themed for a soulblade.

And of course the other possibility is that the soulblade is dead, and never coming back. Not everything has to become a 4e option.

[GMforPowergamers]

I had some work done on a homebrew soul knife, and I found a great way to do it...

Implement/rituel...

soul shards (mind shards cause I called it a mind knife)

you have a rituel (like beast master gets raise compainon) that allows you to break down a weapon into componint then abosorbe them...you can have as many as you like of soul (mind) shards, but are limited to two +1 per tier abosorbed at one time...

1-10 3
11-20 4
21-30 5

The mind blade can look like any weapon, but always had +2 prof, and does Base damage 1d6 at heroic, 1d8 at paragon and 2d4 at epic...Minor action to form the mind blade, and choose one shard to duplicate.

example: I have a +1 Luck blade, a +3 magic, and a +2 duilist weapon as my crytals at 9th level...I could minor make any one of them, or minor to switch witch one was active.

They also had a class feature that added cha mod to damage with the mind blade as psycic damage...

I had a heroic feat to up the damage...so 1d8/1d10/2d6
I had a paragon feat to allow you to amalgam shards...
example: I have a +1 Luck blade, a +3 magic, and a +2 duilist weapon as my crytals at 9th level...I could minor make a +3 Luck blade or a +3 magic, or a +3 duilst...
I had a paragon feat that made it high crit
I had an epic feat that made it a free action to draw/change it
I had an epic feat that let you add the number of shard you had merged to damage with the blade


One of the at wills I desinge was more or less a basic attack...

weapon
Str Vs AC
special: if you are useing a mind blade it is instead Str Vs Will
1W+ str mod
up to 2w at 21st
this counts as a melee basic attack

at 1st, 15th and 25th I had dailys that had effects that augmented the blade for the rest of the encounter...like 1st was add 1d4 psu damage till end of encounter...15th was crit on 18+ till end of encounter and 25th was become brutal 1 till end of encounter...


(((((Down side...it was very mad as a striker. I had melee attack based on Str, Range (throw mind blade) off Dex, and Cha secondary. Everyone that saw the class felt that was the wrong way to go with it...Also by makeing all the attacks weapon attacks with a benfit/bonus if it was a soul/mind blade many thought it wa a trap choice)))))))


If I ever went back to it, I know I would fix alot, b ut the main thought runing through my mind is reworking for power points AND full displine powers both...could be cool

[Dire Bare]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

What I'd really like to see, to be honest, is way to build a "soulknife" from either a psionic striker (be it monk or something else) or a psionic defender. They could each have their own soulknife powers (mechanically different, of course), and the soulknife PrC could be written to accommodate both. (Difficult, for two different roles, but not impossible.)

Perhaps "soul knife" could be a multiclass feat like other weapon feats introduced in Dragon?

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by Dire Bare

Perhaps "soul knife" could be a multiclass feat like other weapon feats introduced in Dragon?

Now that's not a bad idea at all. A multiclass feat progression, followed (for those who want it) by a paragon path, might well indeed be the best 4E conversion of the concept.

[Scholar & Brutalman]

The obvious way to do souldknife would be to make it an implement power. And to make the class implement a wand. Soul Knives would be projected from the end of the wand, which would then be like the hilt of a sword. And they'd also make a sort of buzzing-whooshing sound when swung around.