General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
The one thing I like most about DD4E is the possibility to play a wide range of classes, each with its own quirk and some mechanical peculiarities, most of which play very differently from a tactical standpoint.
I do understand that mechanical diversity is not WFRPG main horse and that careers work very differently respect to classes, but what I'd like to know is if the careers have some differences between them.
I mean: is the only different a bunch of different skills and access to skills and talents or are there different "powers" (or talent or whatever) making for instance a troll slayer different from a witch hunter?
Back then I liked a lor Warhammer quest, in that boardgame the characters were very different.
Is some of this aspect reflected in this game?
100 careers seem like a lot to leave space to really different abilities.
Some wisdom from you guys would prove invaluable in making the hard choiche whether to try this fascinating setting
Last edited by Fabio Andrea Rossi; 21st July 2009 at 12:53 AM..
Professions are packages of ability score increases, skills, and talents (basically feats). They aren't mechanically unique in such a way that you'd necessarily know what Profession someone is by how they perform in play, but the packages are quite different, IMO.
They're different enough that different PCs will be fairly distinct by the end of their first careers. Some talents are fairly rare, too, and only available in one or two advanced careers.
Also, the careers are divided into Basic and Advanced. Advanced careers require you to complete an earlier career in the path first. Basic careers can be hopped into for an expenditure of XP, no matter where you're starting from.
A couple thoughts on the comments so far:
* Economy. I have a couple rules that keep things under control:
1. All crap found on opponents is considered "poor" quality unless otherwise specified.
2. Poor equipment may not be sold, but may be kept (if you really want to)
3. Listed equipment may be sold at 30% +5% per degree of haggle success.
Character diversity:
After playing D&D for 28 years, I've switched to WFRP. I'm very pleased with the fact that the game allows you to define your character under the rules. You're not told what you do. You're not told what your combat actions are. You define them when you play.
I've been running what I laughingly refer to as a "Heroic" version of WFRPG for a while now with my current group. I call it that because I hand out money and experience a bit more freely than suggested in the default rules. I mean, the Priest of Sigmar can almost afford a suit of plate mail!
So far, most of the group is intact; the wannabe-Witch Hunter is nearly out of Fate points, but almost all of the 'really epic' stories center around his character.
The players found a riverboat recently, sold the cargo, and promptly lost a huge chunk of their newfound wealth paying off a crime lord to stop framing two members of the party. (He was a bit annoyed with them for killing one of his men..)
The dice were favorable to the players back at the start -- we've got a Dwarven (Giant)Slayer, an Elven (Journeyman) Wizard, a human priest of Sigmar about to go into Warrior Priest, and a Protagonist who is working his way up to Witch Hunter. There's one other member of the party and he's probably my favorite -- he started as a Burgher. Since no one else in the party could talk to save their own lives, he started working towards 'face' skills.
Despite having roughly the combat skills of an old mule, he's saved the party on numerous occasions, handles all their trading and buying, manages the group's destinations, and is currently learning to sail their new boat. Unlike the other players, who all have destinations in mind, he wanders from career to career organically, taking whatever seems appropriate at the time. It makes for a GREAT character. As long as he stays out of the line of fire, anyway.
I love the system. I love the grit. And I love the fact that I don't need maps, grid-paper, or anything else to run it. Just a couple of character sheets and my imagination. I had trouble doing that in 3E, let alone 4E!
__________________ "On a long enough time line, everyone eventually rolls a 1."
-- Merkuri
The original adventures GW put out might have been the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on.....:-)
Seriously, it is fast-paced, a little scary, a lot crazy and affords you a TON of role-playing chances. You can learn to play in about 10 minutes and make a character in about 20. And for anyone who hasn't played a dwarf scholar with no dexterity to speak of and an affinity for bombs and blunderbusses, you haven't lived!
__________________ That is not dead, which can eternal lie, yet with strange eons, even death may die
-H.P.L.
I've been running what I laughingly refer to as a "Heroic" version of WFRPG for a while now with my current group. I call it that because I hand out money and experience a bit more freely than suggested in the default rules. I mean, the Priest of Sigmar can almost afford a suit of plate mail!
So far, most of the group is intact; the wannabe-Witch Hunter is nearly out of Fate points, but almost all of the 'really epic' stories center around his character.
The players found a riverboat recently, sold the cargo, and promptly lost a huge chunk of their newfound wealth paying off a crime lord to stop framing two members of the party. (He was a bit annoyed with them for killing one of his men..)
The dice were favorable to the players back at the start -- we've got a Dwarven (Giant)Slayer, an Elven (Journeyman) Wizard, a human priest of Sigmar about to go into Warrior Priest, and a Protagonist who is working his way up to Witch Hunter. There's one other member of the party and he's probably my favorite -- he started as a Burgher. Since no one else in the party could talk to save their own lives, he started working towards 'face' skills.
Despite having roughly the combat skills of an old mule, he's saved the party on numerous occasions, handles all their trading and buying, manages the group's destinations, and is currently learning to sail their new boat. Unlike the other players, who all have destinations in mind, he wanders from career to career organically, taking whatever seems appropriate at the time. It makes for a GREAT character. As long as he stays out of the line of fire, anyway.
I love the system. I love the grit. And I love the fact that I don't need maps, grid-paper, or anything else to run it. Just a couple of character sheets and my imagination. I had trouble doing that in 3E, let alone 4E!
I was thinking a different version of "Heroic" WFRP in more staying power for the PC's such as just doubling their starting wounds. I would keep everything else though such as madness, disease, and all the other crunchy goodness that makes WFRP such an awesome game.
I know that economy is mentioned here as being a problem, probably would have to look at that as well.
I was thinking a different version of "Heroic" WFRP in more staying power for the PC's such as just doubling their starting wounds. I would keep everything else though such as madness, disease, and all the other crunchy goodness that makes WFRP such an awesome game.
Well, PC survivability is helped immensely when your GM can't make attack rolls for crap 90& of the time. And the few times he does hit, it's either a pitiful damage roll or the target manages to dodge or parry the attack.
GM: "The lead Orc scores a mighty hit..."
Elf PC: "Finally hit something other than air."
GM: "Shush you. He bellows fiercely as his choppa crashes into your side for... 6 points of damage."
Me: "So between my Toughness bonus and my armor, I take... no damage, right?"
GM: "Blasted Bretonnians and their gorram armor."
Dwarf PC: "Hey, at least Sir Clanksalot couldn't parry or dodge this one."
GM: "Oh shut up and just kill the pathetic blighter already!"
The above is from one of our last few game sessions before the GM's work schedule changed to prevent him from being able to game with us on a regular basis. Which is a shame because the campaign he was running was quite a lot of fun, as he was willing to step out of the "GrimDark" mindset and allow some of the PCs to be a bit happier than what the norm might suggest.
Wolff96,
I can agree whole-heartedly on the "face" of the party being a vital component of a group. Ours was an Entertainer, and I think she transitioned into Rogue. While she wasn't much of a combatant (was a very good knife thrower as well as superb dancer), she proved a great boon on helping us to avoid quite a few scrapes by virtue of her silver tongue, even with some members of the Imperial nobility. Of course, she was quite happy to let the Knight Errant and Troll Slayer take center stage when butts needed to be whupped. And she certainly did keep things lively with a few of her antics.
The one thing I like most about DD4E is the possibility to play a wide range of classes, each with its own quirk and some mechanical peculiarities, most of which play very differently from a tactical standpoint.
I do understand that mechanical diversity is not WFRPG main horse and that careers work very differently respect to classes, but what I'd like to know is if the careers have some differences between them.
I mean: is the only different a bunch of different skills and access to skills and talents or are there different "powers" (or talent or whatever) making for instance a troll slayer different from a witch hunter?
...
Some wisdom from you guys would prove invaluable in making the hard choiche whether to try this fascinating setting
The best way I can answer your question is that this is not D&D4e. The latest version of D&D is very "gameist" and puts a LOT of focus on the mechanical aspects of the game - which is fine! Super tactical highly magical battles is a part of that system and I certainly have fun playing it.
WFRP in its current state is not a "gameist" system in my opinion. The focus is on the setting and the atmosphere. The combat rules are very simple and fast - but you shouldn't be having frequent sessions that are nothing but combat, either!
But if you're looking for distinct roles than you could say that WFRP has many more roles than D&D. With so many careers you can end up with a lot of unique combinations!
Much like D&D4e has four basic roles - Striker, Defender, Controller, Leader - You can think of WFRP as having roles as well, they're just not all centered around fighting: Face (Negotiator), Healer (Physician or Divine), Fighter (Person who fights), Sneak (Sneaky person), Spellcaster, Ect!
If you made a party in WFRP full of nothing but people who fight then you're going to have a very boring game of nothing but battle after battle. When it actually gets to the point that you need to talk to someone or you run into a superior force (because you've been fighting all the time, your enemies aren't going to "balance" your encounters for you) then you're going to be in trouble.
The one thing I like most about DD4E is the possibility to play a wide range of classes, each with its own quirk and some mechanical peculiarities, most of which play very differently from a tactical standpoint.
Then honestly WFRP is not the game for you.
WFRP is much more a traditional rpg, where the thought goes if you want to enter combat, you should play a warrior of some sort (mercenary, soldier, etc)
All other kinds of people really don't want to enter combat, or so is the expectation.
WFRP is still a game about unlikely heroes, so beggars and servants and burgomeisters still need to fight greenskins and mutants. But they have neither the training nor the equipment to do it. This is supposed to be a good thing.
4th Edition D&D is very much a different game. It's completely something else. Its basic assumption is game equals combat, and it is served well by following this assumtion to its logical end, i.e. making all classes equally combat-capable.
A graverobber or courtier in WFRP does not have any hidden combat capabilities, they do not get any compensation for not knowing which end of the stick to point at the enemy. Simply put, a Watchman or Trollslayer is strictly superior to have around when the swords are drawn - just like in real life. Their "role" is to handle enemies; to keep their friends from dying.
With experience, most WFRP characters will probably move to lessen this discrepancy, of course, but that is another discussion.
CZ has some points. The beauty of having a WORLD and not just mechanics is that the players have it easy when they look at THEME, not just mechanics (although you could do that too). When you look at the picture and read the description of a career, that's what gives YOU, THE PLAYER, the inspiration to do whatever it is that you do.
Sure, there are skills and talents that vary as well as particular characteristic benefits to each one, but that's based on the main rules.
WFRP is not a game of exceptions. It has rules that you can count on. Then it's up to the PLAYERS on how to be creative within those guidelines.
Also, since the game isn't a "miniatures wargame" it's about the players solving problems using whatever means necessary. You get xp for meeting goals, not for counting up how many goblins you killed. If you need to rescue the princess, you get the same x.p. whether you burned the building down to kill the monsters and ran out with her hair on fire or if you snuck in and not a shot was fired.
...and there are firearms. They're not a major highlight, but it definately feels very midieval that way
Well, PC survivability is helped immensely when your GM can't make attack rolls for crap 90& of the time. And the few times he does hit, it's either a pitiful damage roll or the target manages to dodge or parry the attack.
GM: "The lead Orc scores a mighty hit..."
Elf PC: "Finally hit something other than air."
GM: "Shush you. He bellows fiercely as his choppa crashes into your side for... 6 points of damage."
Me: "So between my Toughness bonus and my armor, I take... no damage, right?"
GM: "Blasted Bretonnians and their gorram armor."
Dwarf PC: "Hey, at least Sir Clanksalot couldn't parry or dodge this one."
GM: "Oh shut up and just kill the pathetic blighter already!"
The above is from one of our last few game sessions before the GM's work schedule changed to prevent him from being able to game with us on a regular basis. Which is a shame because the campaign he was running was quite a lot of fun, as he was willing to step out of the "GrimDark" mindset and allow some of the PCs to be a bit happier than what the norm might suggest.
Wolff96,
I can agree whole-heartedly on the "face" of the party being a vital component of a group. Ours was an Entertainer, and I think she transitioned into Rogue. While she wasn't much of a combatant (was a very good knife thrower as well as superb dancer), she proved a great boon on helping us to avoid quite a few scrapes by virtue of her silver tongue, even with some members of the Imperial nobility. Of course, she was quite happy to let the Knight Errant and Troll Slayer take center stage when butts needed to be whupped. And she certainly did keep things lively with a few of her antics.
I ran a WFRP 1e campaign with a similar thing. One of my players had a dwarf who maxed out toughness and armor, and the only way to really even start to hurt him was through Ulric's Fury. Any of the other players got their characters churned into butter if Ulric's Fury was rolled on them. One player I think went through five or six characters in the overall campaign.
I ran a WFRP 1e campaign with a similar thing. One of my players had a dwarf who maxed out toughness and armor, and the only way to really even start to hurt him was through Ulric's Fury. Any of the other players got their characters churned into butter if Ulric's Fury was rolled on them. One player I think went through five or six characters in the overall campaign.
I'm lucky -- my dwarf is a Slayer. He only wears armor on his arms and legs (pants and what we call Vambraces) because a hat would interfere with his crest and a chest-piece would obscure his tattoos...
The one that worries me is the Sigmarite. I think his Toughness is around 40 now and he'll soon be buying plate armor... That makes him one tough hombre. Fortunately, he can't roll percentiles to save his life.
The wannabe witch-hunter is a pretty tough customer, really, but he has some horrendous luck. The party face -- going into Master Thief these days, after all his underworld contact in Altdorf -- is getting respectable with his crossbow. The Elf Wizard? Yeah, she nearly got killed in an alley once while being 'discouraged' from an investigation. After Toughness, I think she took 7 wounds from a dagger. And at the time, I think she had around 10 wounds total...
--------------------------------
There's one catch to all of this, though... up until now, they've faced nothing more dangerous than a minor demon and some cultists. And *that* nearly killed them. Now, however, they're on an expedition into the wilderness, off to locate a lost dwarfhame and recover some relics that are rumored to lie there.
Which means greenskins, skaven, natural hazards... They're about to really see the Old World with the gloves off for the first time.
MMmmm, this is going to be fun.
__________________ "On a long enough time line, everyone eventually rolls a 1."
-- Merkuri
The mechanics and gameplay sound very intriguing, but it sounds like the gameplay is tied very tightly to the warhammer fluff/world. Which is unfortunate as I'm not really a fan, I'd rather homebrew.
So WFRP players I'll put this out to you, how easy is it to take the "warhammer" out of the game and simply make it a dark and gritty fantasy game??
I'm lucky -- my dwarf is a Slayer. He only wears armor on his arms and legs (pants and what we call Vambraces) because a hat would interfere with his crest and a chest-piece would obscure his tattoos...
The one that worries me is the Sigmarite. I think his Toughness is around 40 now and he'll soon be buying plate armor... That makes him one tough hombre. Fortunately, he can't roll percentiles to save his life.
The wannabe witch-hunter is a pretty tough customer, really, but he has some horrendous luck. The party face -- going into Master Thief these days, after all his underworld contact in Altdorf -- is getting respectable with his crossbow. The Elf Wizard? Yeah, she nearly got killed in an alley once while being 'discouraged' from an investigation. After Toughness, I think she took 7 wounds from a dagger. And at the time, I think she had around 10 wounds total...
--------------------------------
There's one catch to all of this, though... up until now, they've faced nothing more dangerous than a minor demon and some cultists. And *that* nearly killed them. Now, however, they're on an expedition into the wilderness, off to locate a lost dwarfhame and recover some relics that are rumored to lie there.
Which means greenskins, skaven, natural hazards... They're about to really see the Old World with the gloves off for the first time.
MMmmm, this is going to be fun.
See, now that I'm reading these posts about WFRP, I want to run something NOW. I have yet to run a 2e game, but ran a ton of 1e games back in the day.
The mechanics and gameplay sound very intriguing, but it sounds like the gameplay is tied very tightly to the warhammer fluff/world. Which is unfortunate as I'm not really a fan, I'd rather homebrew.
So WFRP players I'll put this out to you, how easy is it to take the "warhammer" out of the game and simply make it a dark and gritty fantasy game??
I know it's been done, but I wouldn't want to try it.
While the basic system can work for everything, if you don't have an expectation of rat catchers, flagellants, zealots, etc., a lot of stuff makes less sense. Also, the whole system of divine magic is very world-centric.
It can be done - it's a solid system - but it wouldn't be as easy as changing the setting for a D&D game.
BTW, for those of you who want all the free downloads from the old Black Industries site (including all those scenarios), here's the Internet Way-Back-Machine archives. It has all the PDF's, maps, etc.
So WFRP players I'll put this out to you, how easy is it to take the "warhammer" out of the game and simply make it a dark and gritty fantasy game??
I'd say this would actually be pretty easy and fun to convert. There's nothing that inter-related between the roleplay and the crunch that says that you couldn't do it any other way. I've done it for WFRP and CONAN before (and we've all seen the Lankhmar supplement for D&D right?)
I started in the warhammer world using the D&D 4e system..now that wasn't all that interesting (no 4e for me
Anyways, for conversions:
It runs just like 3E D&D except your damage is reduced by armor and toughness rather than just an AC hit. The SKILLS and TALENTS (i.e. Feats) are just like 3E D&D.
Careers are essentially generic. What world doesn't have rat catchers, priests, wizards, halflings, elves, dwarves, zealots of religion, and whatnot. Although chaos is mentioned, nothing is bound to it. Witch hunters and others could just as well be "evil hunters" instead. Personally, I think NOT having the hedge wizards hunted would be a lot more fun than the puritanical limitations of life in the Empire.
If you don't want a chaos effect on spells, don't have it. It doesn't break the game not to use the charts or "chaos" although I prefer the wildness of magic in this system. It would be fun to homebrew a world just for this!
Spells are broken into generic colleges just like in D&D of old. One color for every in the rainbow.
Priests aren't dependent on their gods and the names could be quickly changed.
GUNS are easy enough to add or remove. Personally, I'd leave them in a homebrew game simply because black powder makes the world darker, evil, and prone to guns jamming at the wrong moment
So WFRP players I'll put this out to you, how easy is it to take the "warhammer" out of the game and simply make it a dark and gritty fantasy game??
I don't really see what's wrong with the setting, as you can take the game to other places besides the Empire - but if you wanted to make it a generic gritty fantasy game I don't see the mechanics really getting in the way.
There are a few cereer restrictions based on the universe (such as dwarves and halflings not being able to use magic) and you could simply remove those restrictions if you wanted.
I have a friend who is more or less incapable of gamemastering established settings, he always has to create his own fantasy universe. I could see a more generic setting with the WFRP rules taking place in a nameless savage wilderness somewhere.
...Like a fallout-esque fantasy post-apocolyptic wasteland. Imagine WFRP after chaos defeats the empire.
The mechanics and gameplay sound very intriguing, but it sounds like the gameplay is tied very tightly to the warhammer fluff/world. Which is unfortunate as I'm not really a fan, I'd rather homebrew.
So WFRP players I'll put this out to you, how easy is it to take the "warhammer" out of the game and simply make it a dark and gritty fantasy game??
If you stick with just the basic rulebook, you're fine--not too much to tweak to make it your own kind of homebrew, but the other supplements tend to get very setting specific in that you'll have more work to do to alter them to suit your tastes.
Altogether, try the setting too! It really is an awesome setting of a dark and grim times.
The mechanics and gameplay sound very intriguing, but it sounds like the gameplay is tied very tightly to the warhammer fluff/world. Which is unfortunate as I'm not really a fan, I'd rather homebrew.
So WFRP players I'll put this out to you, how easy is it to take the "warhammer" out of the game and simply make it a dark and gritty fantasy game??
The only WFRP2 game I ever ran was a Pirates of the Caribbean game and it worked completely fine setting the game outside the Old World. The only real tweak I had to make was making guns more prevalent.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
