General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
What industry out there can afford to remain at rest. Name a single product that has no need to change, reinvent itself, be modified or otherwise re-evaluated periodically.
Uh.. Oil is a very bad example of a static industry. Just look at the oil sands boom in Canada and the folks looking to drill in the deep ocean or the fluctuating price that one day makes a previously closed unprofitable well a gold mine, and then suddenly less than worthless as examples of the ever changing nature of the Oil industry.
Edit: actually let me restate that, Oil isn't a good example of a static industry. Maybe not a 'very bad' one.
As far as GURPS goes, I'm a fan, but I'm not sure GURPS is as healthy as it once was. I remember when they were releasing 6-8 supplements a year or so and the amount of stuff coming out has really dwindled over this decade. I think they were the victim of the d20 glut--as more d20 games got popular they suffered. I'm disapppointed because I loved GURPS, but wish they'd make more supplements.
Thanks for pointing out who he is. I know, but was still a bit fuzzy.
As far as GURPS output, they are actually quite prolific in the PDF arena. The e23 has quite a few new releases from them. Ironically it seems to be a growing model for them.
Mishler is known in the industry, even if many fans don't know him by name. He's a member of the "cabal", my code word for the game designers who made the "secret mailing list". So I doubt this was any sort of deliberate trolling--he was simply answering somebody's honest questions and he got
Nah this is the same Mishler that gave us this....
And I remember the article and where he placed all the systems he liked and where he placed newer systems. I can dig up some links (I know the RPG.net links are still there) about it. But it was a nasty bit that has been removed from his blog.
I am just not really interested in this guy telling me "how it is" or "how it is going to be". I disagree with many of his opinions, and most of facts are either incorrect or poorly presented, or in some cases just his own opinions being stated as facts.
I get it. He is into older D&D and the games derived from them. Newer D&D's (and the games derived from them and players) are false, "doing it wrong", and/or destroying the hobby for this reason or that, depending on weekday and whats being talked about on the interwebs. I think if you throw in some post dissection and name calling, that sums up the blog series nicely.
I am just not really interested in this guy telling me "how it is" or "how it is going to be". I disagree with many of his opinions, and most of facts are either incorrect or poorly presented, or in some cases just his own opinions being stated as facts.
It's his blog. Honestly what do you expect? He didn't ask to get quoted lock-stock-and-barrel on ENW.
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It's his blog. Honestly what do you expect? He didn't ask to get quoted lock-stock-and-barrel on ENW.
If he did not want to get quoted, then it should have been a private document. As it stands he posted in a format viewable to all, which leads me to believe that the intent was to share it. The information wants to be free
And I am OK with him placing his opinions on his blog. I don't read his blog, but I do read ENW (which is where I found the article). All I am saying is that this guy has a history of flame(ish) postings, and I can't help but wonder if getting quoted on ENW is not exactly what the guy intended.
But I withdraw. I am not going to debate about some grogblog. the guy obviously has some strong feelings on newer systems. I don't like 4e either, but the difference, is that I don't think it is systemic of/or a portent of an industry problem. I think it is just a matter of taste. (obviously, you could insert any system into that statement right where 4e is for me).
I am curious, did you come across the augmented reality (AR) meme like I did from Square Mans' blog (link) or is this something that you and/or Paizo have been thinking about for awhile?
If that wasn't the entry point for you, where did you first come across the AR meme.
My art director, James Davis, showed me some YouTube video about the time they were pimping the new Metal Gear game for the PS3, so it's been on my radar for a while.
Since I spent a lot of time that should have been spent proofreading the Pathfinder Bestiary to write my response to Mishler's latest post...
Stop that! Get back to work! That book needs to be in my hands in less(?) than two months!
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RPGs are distinct and versatile enough that can have their classic time-resistant representative powers.
I end up arguing with you a lot, so I'll keep this short and sweet:
What? RPGs are durable, and outside of new editions don't need to be replaced. They may indeed be time resistant, but a time resistant durable product is a bad business model. If the gaming companies can't profit, we aren't going to have as high a quality product as we would if they could. In other words, they can but they shouldn't.
I'd like to dispel at least one misconception that I've seen repeated a few times in this discussion: the whole "PDF as Loss Leader" thing.
PDFs, regardless of price, are no more a "loss leader" for the print version of a game product than an iTunes download, vinyl or cassette album is a "loss leader" for the CD.
It's a different format, with a different price. Nothing more.
Or are you seriously going to tell me that paperback novels are "loss leaders" for hardcovers? (Mishler most likely would, since he seems to think that if it's the same content, it should be exactly the same price, regardless of format -- at least according this his latest bizarre assertion about trade paperbacks vs mass-market paperbacks....)
But hey, what do I know. I'm just the "King of Snark", apparently.
If the majority are buying a particular product, then that product BY DEFINITION is not a niche product.
From what we've heard of WOTC's sales related to the legal case, the majority of the former D&D audience are not buying 4E, with sales in the hundreds of thousands and the former audience estimated in the millions, from memory.
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From what we've heard of WOTC's sales related to the legal case, the majority of the former D&D audience are not buying 4E, with sales in the hundreds of thousands and the former audience estimated in the millions, from memory.
I am still not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that 4e D&D is a niche product in the RPG industry?
It is the 800lb gorilla.
Maybe Erik M. can let us know if he thinks 4e D&D is a niche product...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rounser
I think you've got it backwards. Where it used to cater to a broad church, it now serves a niche taste, such that some of us don't even identify it as D&D anymore.
I agree that 4e fragmented the (huge) base that was built by WOTC during the 3.x era, but it is not serving to a niche taste.
Where it used to cater to a massive megachurch, it now serves a regular sized megachurch, such that a relatively insignificant number of [you] don't even identify it as D&D anymore.
There are people that still play OGL 3.x games that at least recognize that 4e is D&D too, just another flavor.
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The only thing that seems inaccurate about his post is his analysis of PDF sales.
Heck, even with his 5 to 1 rule PAizo is still making as much profit on selling the PDF at $10 as they are selling the print version for $50.00. So a loss leader? I don't think so.
Plus, WOTC and Goodman have both clearly stated that PDF sales are pretty much a meaningless part of their revenue stream. Paizo has even gone so far as to say PDF sales are not exactly significant.
However, he very well may be right about the game market shrinking, I know several publishers (smaller ones) are walking fine lines of survival and closing shop. Since they are publishers I like I hope their doors stay open.
Will it crash and burn into oblivion? No, I don't think so, but I don't think that is what James was saying either. It is walking the line between being the way it is and radical change, and I think the change is inevitable.
Getting back to PDF's, their sales suck for one simple reason, most of us consumers know they are far, far cheaper to produce and distribute than print books, so we simply refuse to pay such over inflated pricing for them. Simple as that. I know the book industry would love to make the ugly profit margins Microsoft and the video game industry makes on their video games, but books are not video games or software programs. So its not going to happen unless consumers become much less savvy. So if the book market wants PDF sales to explode, then they better slash their pricing to a reasonable profit margin, instead of price gouging us like the video game industry does.
So if a book company makes $10 per book in the print trade then that should be the PDF price. Not an inflated profit margin by acting like we are being given a deal over print versions by pricing PDF's at 60% of retail. We are not, we are being price gouged.
That is where I think Paizo is going down the right path. They know they only will make about $10 per print book sold through distribution, considerably more from books they sell directly through their subscriptions and website sales.
So selling the PDF for $10 is simply fair pricing, not a "loss leader". A fair price I think Paizo is going to reap rewards from. I know at least 6 people who had no interest in PF, but since I told them about the $10 PDF price point, they have since said they will now check PF out when it is released. Wy? Because the PDF price was such a reasonable one. IE not the over inflated price we see with too many companies. One of which is PAizo, with the prices they sell most of their PDF's at.
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