General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
ENnies: should "Best Free Product" include Quick-starts?
First off, there's a HUGE conflict of interest in this post, since Swords & Wizardry is one of the stand-alone products up against the quick start rules for a White Wolf and a Green Ronin game. But I've been mulling it over, not surprisingly, and it's really an interesting question. I'm hugely grateful to Rob Lang's Truly Free Campaign, but in the final analysis I see it a bit differently.
It's an interesting question because it cuts to the issue of what the ENnies ought to "promote," in terms of a free product. That is, I think, one of the things Rob is pointing to in the campaign to elect one of the two stand-alone products (Swords & Wizardry, and Trial and Terror). A set of quick start rules is unquestionably a product, just not necessarily a stand-alone one. And many CAN be used as a stand-alone game if you don't feel you need what's added in the full-scale rules.
If the question is pure quality of a particular release, without looking at how it's used, then quick-start rules absolutely ought to be in the category. If the question is about how the product is actually to be used, on the other hand, then the category would become lots more complex - some sort of delineation other than just "product" would be needed.
So, my final thoughts on it are actually contrary to my own interests - I think the best way to handle the ENnies is to have relatively broad categories which the voters, as well as the judges, interpret. By trying to judge on a rubric other than the quality of the submission - by reference to its use or intention - the number of categories would become so numerous that it would be crazy (and there might not be enough submissions in some categories to maintain the level of competition required for a contest to highlight only the really good stuff).
So my position on the disquiet over this issue is that it's being done right; if a set of teaser rules are done well, they should be judged on that, not on the underlying game being promoted.
AND ... I think Swords & Wizardry can win on quality alone, even against more heavily promoted products.
To play Devil's advocate, should there be a 'Best Free Product' at all? I mean, if it's good, it should be able to compete in some of the categories with the so-called 'major corporations'. Sure, it might not be able to compete in 'Production Values', which pretty much does require some major monetary investment, but 'Writing' or 'Rules' should be perfectly competitive.
I thought T&T:SVU was damned clever and creative, and maybe the only thing keeping it from being nominated in other categories was it's brevity and tight focus -- things that are understandable given the circumstances of its creation.
I don't think the ENnies "ought to promote" anything. That implies an agenda other than "what's the best stuff?"
Basically, if it's good, it shuld be in the running for a nomination. With the caveat that it must be judged entirely on its own strengths, and not its purpose.
The ENnies judges don't really care why a product exists; just that it exists. Heck, it's all semantics anyway - rename "Quickstart" with "Lite" and the issue (if ther eis one, which I personally don't believe there is) goes way.
If it's free, it belongs in the "Free Product" category, IMO. I don't see any need to distinguish between quick start rules and other free products.
This. KISS applies to award shows, as well. I think that splitting "free product" into different sub-categories is unnecessary. Before the ENnies went that route, I'd rather see them eliminate the "free product" category entirely. I say this as somebody who has had two free products of my own nominated for the Indie RPG Awards.
Well, I'm biased because I spend my time reading, playing and reviewing free RPGs. I know a lot of you are not going to agree with me but that's what makes life interesting! I've boiled down my argument a bit since my blog post, having discussed this with Ennies types.
The Ennies are about finding the best RPG stuff out there. The Best Free RPG Product category does not contain the best free products released this year. It contains those free products that were submitted. Therefore, the Ennies are going to fail to award the best free product. All the items are free but they are far from being the best free products this year.
It should be no surprise that the world of Free RPGs is vastly different from the world of commercial ones, so should not be dealt with in the same way. You tend not to have groups of people writing a free RPG - it tends to be the vision of one person supported by friends and people on the internet. They are giving up their time and energy to share something for nothing on the internet and as such have no budget (in time or money) for marketing or art. They are not doing this for money but for the love of game and the small joy they get when someone emails them to say how good their game is. A modest bunch, normally. You would like the games too, the best of the bunch are well written, laid out and have concepts you won't see in commercial games because risk is not a factor.
I propose that for free products, the community at large should be able to recommend their favourite, like they do for the people's choice. If it is still the case that the marketing material is in the nomination list then I can't complain but I don't think the current nomination process for right for free RPG products.
I propose that for free products, the community at large should be able to recommend their favourite, like they do for the people's choice. If it is still the case that the marketing material is in the nomination list then I can't complain but I don't think the current nomination process for right for free RPG products.
I completely disagree. First of all, you're making a your own value judgement as to what the 'best' is. It's true that there might be something out there better, but the same is true for commercial RPGs. If it's not nominated, it's not eligible, and the barrier for entry is remarkably low.
If someone who's put all that effort into a free RPG that they think is a contender can't be bothered to enter, and if all the supposed fans of this wonderful product can't convince him to enter, why should the ENnies go out of their way to persuade him to do so?
If you like a product, tell the publisher you like it and that they should submit it for consideration. Tell your friends that play it to tell the publisher they like it and they should submit it. That enhances the bonds between the publisher and their fans, and between the publishers and the ENnies. That's a win all around.
And if it's a good product, it should compete on it's own merits, not some arbitrary cost/benefit analysis. If it's good, it's good regardless of what it costs.
The Best Free RPG Product category does not contain the best free products released this year. It contains those free products that were submitted.
True. But that's not a failing of the ENnies. The burden to submit product for consideration is on publishers, not on the ENnies staff. In fact, I can't even begin to comprehend how one might arrive at any other conclusion.
I recently have gone through several quick starts and I think that a separate category of awards for them makes some sense.
Some are very good, others not so much. Making a good quick start has got to be a tough and strange kind of game making. A good one is a good intro to a specific game, to gaming in general, and is a fun game to boot. I think there are a few quick starts that meet those goals with style and the creators deserve some recognition.
I recently have gone through several quick starts and I think that a separate category of awards for them makes some sense.
Some are very good, others not so much. Making a good quick start has got to be a tough and strange kind of game making. A good one is a good intro to a specific game, to gaming in general, and is a fun game to boot. I think there are a few quick starts that meet those goals with style and the creators deserve some recognition.
But that's just me.
Thing is, there aren't enough of them in a given year to justify their own category. Less than 10 or so and the category gets dropped or combined with something else, so they'd likely get grouped into Free Product anyway or not evaluated at all.
Thing is, there aren't enough of them in a given year to justify their own category. Less than 10 or so and the category gets dropped or combined with something else, so they'd likely get grouped into Free Product anyway or not evaluated at all.
Forgot about that.
That makes the collection of 'free' things make a lot of sense then. Though maybe something other than a yearly award could make sense. I dunno, sorry, I'm done capping.
I prefer to think of the Best Free Product category as the place they've sequestered Trial & Terror from all the other ENnie nominees--for their own protection, of course. Cause it absolutely would tear up the place. I'm looking at you, Best Cartography and Podcast. And don't get me started on what it would do the Product of the Year nominees.
While I can see the argument that free products could compete with non-free products of the same type, I think leaving them in a free product category is actually a good idea. It allows the ENnies to publicize good, nomination-worthy products in a category that the voters will have the best ability to actually research before we cast our votes. I can't afford to buy every other product nominated in most categories - but the free ones, I can and approach the voting with the best knowledge should I decide to put in the effort not the cash.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
I propose that for free products, the community at large should be able to recommend their favourite, like they do for the people's choice. If it is still the case that the marketing material is in the nomination list then I can't complain but I don't think the current nomination process for right for free RPG products.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Rob, but can't fans already submit the products for the publisher by the rules, and the product will be accepted as a submission as long as the publisher agrees to it?
Or do you want it that the judges are not involved in the process at all, that it becomes like the Fan's Choice for Best Publisher, where every submission is voted on by the public and no judging is done on the products?
I guess I'm weird, because I don't really see Quick Start Rules as a product (I see them as a marketing device to sell real products). But none of this upsets me.
__________________
“It only surprised me up until around 1977, ... I had thought we were going to have a considerable audience of gamers and science fiction and fantasy fans. I thought easily with those we'd have 50,000 or more [buyers], but when people began to write me [with questions] about what fantasy books to read, and I saw the wide range of both younger and older people who were attracted to the game, I understood that it was reaching a deeper chord, something deep within us.” – E. Gary Gygax (July 27, 1938 – March 4, 2008)
I guess I'm weird, because I don't really see Quick Start Rules as a product (I see them as a marketing device to sell real products). But none of this upsets me.
See, I've played several quick-starts without owning or buying or anyone in the group in question owning or buying the actual game.
Yes it is a marketing device to sell more products, just like the D&D core books are a marketing device to sell more supplements and vice versa. But it is more than that.
[IMG]The Ennies are about finding the best RPG stuff out there. The Best Free RPG Product category does not contain the best free products released this year. It contains those free products that were submitted. Therefore, the Ennies are going to fail to award the best free product. All the items are free but they are far from being the best free products this year.
Well then, these creative folks should have submitted their works of genius. Or, someone else should have prompted them to do so, or even (asked and) done so on their behalf. But that's certainly one way of putting a damper on the awards you've got going there, even be it unintentionally.
Quote:
It should be no surprise that the world of Free RPGs is vastly different from the world of commercial ones, so should not be dealt with in the same way.
You did mention something about disagreement being likely? Yeah, I disagree. Not about the first part, but the second, yes - they should indeed be dealt with in exactly the same way: based on their merits.
Quote:
They are not doing this for money but for the love of game ---snip---
Ah, the motive shared by perhaps *most* (or at least, many) gamers involved in the production of RPGs. Money? Hah! You must be kidding. With only (maybe) two or three exceptions that come to mind, there are just so many better ways of making sure you're earning actual, real money. Y'know, in significant amounts.
Quote:
You would like the games too, the best of the bunch are well written, laid out and have concepts you won't see in commercial games because risk is not a factor.
Again, disagree. And again, not with the first bit there. But many 'commercial games' (haha) have taken plenty of risks, and then again, making large amounts of money was perhaps never considered likely in the first place, in some cases. So, 'risks'? Pfft.
Quote:
If it is still the case that the marketing material is in the nomination list then I can't complain but I don't think the current nomination process for right for free RPG products.
By 'can't complain' it sure sounds like you also mean 'but will anyway' . And, one last time, I disagree. The current nomination process is just fine. It's quite visible at several (perhaps even all?) major RPG forums, and even a few other popular sites for good measure. It's stated clearly, all over the place, how to get your stuff into the ENnies, what you need to do, other details, etc.
No, I've got nothing to do with the whole thing, and have never had a product (free or otherwise) in the race, but I do believe you had some facts wrong there, and some opinions that, well, I felt compelled to take issue with.
Hm, wonder if I can disagree some more. . . maybe if I sift through it again. . .
Yeah, I disagree. Not about the first part, but the second, yes - they should indeed be dealt with in exactly the same way: based on their merits.
. And, one last time, I disagree. 
The current nomination process is just fine. It's quite visible at several (perhaps even all?) major RPG forums, and even a few other popular sites for good measure. It's stated clearly, all over the place, how to get your stuff into the ENnies, what you need to do, other details, etc.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
