4e / GSL Minions: What Bugs You?

[ExploderWizard]

Originally Posted by Hussar

I'm not sure how accurate it is to call 3rd level (when you get web) a mid to high level campaign.

Sure, 30 orcs vs a 1st level party is going to smoosh the party. Two levels later, they're a speed bump, and probably so even without area of effect spells. The fighter's AC is likely in the negatives as is the cleric's. The orcs are hitting on a 20 while the fighter types and cleric blat orcs every round.

Really? 30 orcs is not a challenge to a 3rd level party? I remember facing 8-10 at a time in Keep on the Borderlands at 3rd level and not having that be super tough but 30 would be.

[JediSoth]

My biggest problem with minions is probably a function of my group: they encourage metagaming.

See, my group doesn't have any AoE attackers (yes, no one chose to make a wizards), so I don't have that problem. I really don't care about them going down in one hit; it kind of makes the PCs feel like badasses. But the lack of random damage from a minion make them very obvious after a few rounds of combat.

"Oh, he did 5 HP damage again? That guy must be a minion. OK, concentrate on the guy that hit the thief for 20 points of damage. Everyone else we can mop up later!"

Clearly, I'm not using ENOUGH minions.

[SkidAce]

I wasn't sure about minions at first. I had what seems to be the common consensus, automatic damage was too lethal/easy and 1/8 ratio would be better.

However, I gave something a try. The party was fighting wratihs and spirits (not actual wraiths and spirits, a custom 3rd level monster, nothing special just reflavored something that had a fly speed). All was well as they fought their way through the crypt/labyrinth. They found the Ankh of the Fiery Seraphim Hurray.

Then they made it to the final climatic enounter...but just outside the BBG crypt was a hallway swarming with wraiths/spirits. I turned them into minions to the guy with the Ankh, it was cool. They stayed in the Ankhs's aura and the wraiths threw themselves futily into the flames, and crisped themselves. One or two folks would get out of the aura and had to fight their way back in against (to them) normal wraiths. Good times.

And my players in my experience, don't feel an attack is wasted against a minion, they are very leery of taking ANY damage. So when they take one out, they high five and say things like "head shot...good kill Rwoyen".

They seem to think I will still attempt to slowly grind down their resources in 4th ED.

[amysrevenge]

Originally Posted by JediSoth

"Oh, he did 5 HP damage again? That guy must be a minion. OK, concentrate on the guy that hit the thief for 20 points of damage. Everyone else we can mop up later!"

If you follow some of Stalker0's tips in the anti-grind thread, your players will learn to go for the minions first, and then deal with the "real" enemies.

If your minions do things like bull rush, grab, and aid another/flank (on behalf of the actual damage dealers) rather than just ping for 5-6 damage, they suddenly become worthy of attention.

And they can do all of these things just as well as any "real" monster of their level, because their stats are level appropriate. That's one of the things that makes the minion mechanic work. Sure, thematically if you wanted to throw some mooks at your 19th level party you could use standard level 1 goblins, with their actual pool of 20-something hit points and their hit rolls in the +5 range, and their sub-20 defenses. But not only would the goblins always be hit on a 2 by your PCs, they would only hit on a 20 (and even then it almost certainly wouldn't be a critical) and wouldn't be able to do much of anything except stand in the way for one round. At least with minions they can still hit, and their defenses are enough that minions of an appropriate level can often stick around for a few rounds (especially if they aren't all clumped together in a way that auto-damage can nuke them all at once).

Are there some problems with auto-damage wiping out hordes of minions for very little cost? Yes. But I think that the mechanic as a whole is a good one, and just needs a tiny tweak to be just right.

[Lord Xtheth]

What bugs me most about minions is that they only have 1 HP and are still worth 1/4 XP. Yes, I know I can change whatever I want as a DM, but at this time I'm still accidently hopping back and forth between memorized 3.5 rules and 4E rules and I want to play by the rules until I stop making these mistakes.