General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
So I don't think anyone reading this will be shocked when I say that, for the most part, I really like 4E. (Pause for gasps of astonishment. ) I enjoy the vast majority of the aspects of gameplay, and many of the omissions I missed were mitigated by PHB2.
But there's one thing about the game that does bug me a little, and it's this. In every prior edition, there were always a few deliberately simple options for someone brand new to the game, who hadn't yet gotten their minds around the rules. You could always hand the newcomer the fighter or the thief/rogue and say "Go." Perhaps they wouldn't be using the class to its full potential, but there was a minimum of difficulty in learning how to use it, and--for those intimidated by character creation (something that I have seen more than once), a minimum of choices to make.
There's no "beginner class" in 4E. Oh, certainly the PHB2 classes are a bit more complex than those in the first PHB, and the wizard is more complicated than, say, the rogue. But there's nothing you can just hand someone who's barely learned the combat rules and say "Play this." The two old standbys, the fighter and the rogue, have their own complexities--the combat challenge, maneuvering for sneak attack, etc.--and, of course their vast array of powers.
So I'm wondering, how would folks go about fixing this? My two instincts would be
A) It might be cool if WotC (or a third party) provided a sample character of each class, of every level, with all the choices already made and having selected the simplest and most intuitive of the powers.
B) I've been wondering if it'd be possible to create a new class whose class features were all very simple, and with a choice of only two powers (or maybe even just one) at every level. The class features would be mostly static bonuses, so the newbie could just add them and be done with it, rather than having to remember to maneuver for sneak attack, or declare his quarry, or choose his spells, or whatever. And while the powers would, of course, be balanced with the average level of powers from the other classes, the lack of choices wouldn't send the beginner into a tizzy. Of course, said class would only have a single build, and all characters of said class would look mostly the same as any other--but that's the point. This is the class that you give someone to "cut their teeth on," before they move on to creating a character of a "real" class, with all the choice that entails.
It would probably have to be a martial character--a fighter-lite or ranger-lite, if you will--just to keep it as dirt-simple as possible.
I'm just curious if anyone else has felt the need for such a thing when introducing new players, and what they think of these--or other--possible solutions.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
IMHO, Archery Rangers are about as easy as you can get in 4E.
Basically, stand in the back, use HQ on the closest bad guy, use twin strike every round you don't use an encounter or daily on said bad guy, profit. You don't even have to worry about prime shot if you do don't want to move.
Hmm... I would say Class Features are definitely the most complex aspect for classes. Most of the time Powers are nicely self-contained so I think a beginner can fairly easily grasp that thanks to the format. But Class Features can throw a monkey into the wrench with how they bounce off Powers or influence them, or other things, etc.
Perhaps if Class Features became Powers in their own right? They could be added to the bottom of Powers, or put straight into the Power to begin with. Or have their own Powers perhaps as Minor-Actions or something?
__________________ Secret Member of... *blink, blink* Damn you amnesia!
The easy-go-class is Ranger, in my opinion. Just pick the twin-strike clone powers, and you are set.
Of course, every class introduces some complexity and some tactics you need, but I think Ranger, especially Archery, has the least of it.
Otherwise, I think every player that starts at 1st level will find the classes not so difficult to learn. There is a lot of learning in how to use the right tactics, but honestly - that was always the case. Fighter was mechanically simple, but was it really so easy to know who to attack and how to keep the enemies at bay before they prey on the wizard? When not to charge in the middle of foes? To stay at the choke point in the door and not let yourself surrounded?
I think a big benefit is that everyone is following the same rules structure. There is little "specialist" knowledge on "How do spell slots works!". Everybody has to learn how at-wills, encounters and dailies work, and that gives more synergy effects.
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Oh, I agree that the ranger is probably the nearest thing to a 4E "easy-go" class. And I tend to recommend it to newbies.
But I know that even that amount of choice and power selection has intimidated some newcomers I've seen. Some of them really want to start with a "pick-up-and-go" class, without many choices, and without too many options even in a given round of combat.
I know full well that that's opposed to the 4E design philosophy; I just think there's room for a single class, or suite of options, to go that route.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
I personally haven't seen any need for anything simpler than current 4E. IMHO, 4E Character Generation is one of the easier D&D systems (not counting going way back where your only choice was basically race/class).
I've indoctrinated 3 new players since 4E came out, 2 of which had not ever played an RPG and one who hadn't played anything since 2E D&D. The 2E player played a rogue out of the gate and had no problem with it. Due to his wife getting pregnant though, we lost him as a player after one campaign.
The other two, started off their first campaign with a Warlock and 2H Offensive Fighter. Each moved on in the second campaign to more complex choices. The warlock changed to a Ranger/MC Rogue/Battlefield Archer and the Fighter changed to a Rogue/MC Fighter/Shocktrooper Feycharger build. Neither had any problems picking up the basic game system. Granted they had some help in building characters with suggestions from the vets, but they were never "Lost" as to why we made the suggestions we did, and even came up with some good suggestions/choices of their own.
IMHO, there really is no need for anything more simple than what we already have. I don't want to say 4E is 'dumbed down' but it is much less complex IMHO than some of the previous iterations of character building, even when taking into account Hybrid and Multiclass rules.
If you want to make learning easiest for someone, simply make the character for them and then show them how to use it. Some classes are still easier than others. For the most part straight forward Strikers are the easiest to play, especially the ranger and barbarian. Fighters and rogues are also easy. Don't however give a shaman to a newbie.
I know full well that that's opposed to the 4E design philosophy; I just think there's room for a single class, or suite of options, to go that route.
Except that I don't think anyone who has played the game longer than three sessions would enjoy that.
Aside from serious newbies who are intimidated by options, I just cannot conceive of players who want fewer choices.
I mean, no at will, encounter, or dailies? Or 4 options of encounter powers per level? At that point, the person is playing with an NPC statblock, not a PC class. Hand them an NPC statblock, with one or two recharge powers, and be done with it.
It's like wanting to play Champions, but not wanting to bother with the math, or choosing your powers. That's just how the system is built. If that's not for you, then perhaps the game just isn't for you.
For the most part straight forward Strikers are the easiest to play, especially the ranger and barbarian.
To be fair, I've found the Barbarian has a lot to keep track of. All the stuff that triggers when reduces a target to 0 HP, and there is a certain amount of tactics involved - particularly that he hits hard, but is fairly weak, so you have to know when to go in and come out of combat.
B) I've been wondering if it'd be possible to create a new class whose class features were all very simple, and with a choice of only two powers (or maybe even just one) at every level. The class features would be mostly static bonuses, so the newbie could just add them and be done with it, rather than having to remember to maneuver for sneak attack, or declare his quarry, or choose his spells, or whatever. And while the powers would, of course, be balanced with the average level of powers from the other classes, the lack of choices wouldn't send the beginner into a tizzy. Of course, said class would only have a single build, and all characters of said class would look mostly the same as any other--but that's the point. This is the class that you give someone to "cut their teeth on," before they move on to creating a character of a "real" class, with all the choice that entails.
This is the 4E class for anyone who feels overwhelmed by the power choices in 4E or constrained by 4E's power descriptions and just wants simple attacks that may be flavored however the player wants.
The Armsman "I attack."
Class Traits
Role: Striker. You are able to make damaging attacks with your weapons. You also have high hit points and good armor, so you lean towards defender as a secondary role. Power Source: Martial. You depend on your fighting skill and the occasional stroke of luck. Key Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution.
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail, scale, plate; light shield, heavy shield Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged, military ranged Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score Hit Points per Level Gained: 6 Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Athletics and Endurance. From the class skills list below, choose one more trained skill at 1st level. Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Intimidate (Cha), Streetwise (Cha)
Class Features: Armsman Weapon Talent, Background Skill, Combat Flexibility
An armsman is a competent warrior that functions well in melee and at range. He focuses on making simple but effective attacks.
Armsman Class Features
Armsman Weapon Talent
You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and a +2 bonus to damage rolls when you use a power that has the weapon keyword. The bonus to damage rolls increases to +3 if you use a two-handed weapon or a versatile weapon wielded in two hands.
At 11th level, the bonus to damage rolls increases to +4, or +6 if you use a two-handed weapon or a versatile weapon wielded in two hands.
At 21st level, the bonus to damage rolls increases to +6, or +9 if you use a two-handed weapon or a versatile weapon wielded in two hands.
Background Skill
You gain training in one additional skill.
Combat Flexibility
You may expend an armsman encounter attack power to use any other armsman encounter attack power of lower level, even if it is one that you do not know.
Armsman Powers
Unlike most other classes, an armsman does not need to choose encounter, daily or utility powers because there is only a single power at each level. An armsman only needs to select two of the three at-will powers available to him at 1st level (a human armsman does not even need to make this choice). When an encounter or daily attack power allows an armsman to use an at-will armsman attack power, he may select an at-will armsman attack power that he does not know.
Most armsman powers allow you to use Strength instead of Dexterity for ranged attack rolls and damage rolls when you use a weapon with the heavy thrown property, and Dexterity instead of Strength for melee attack rolls and damage rolls when you use a light blade. This is indicated in the text of the powers.
Level 1 At-Will Exploits
Weapon Attack
Armsman Attack 1 You attack your opponent.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged or melee with light blade)
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier damage at 21st level.
Weapon Interference
Armsman Attack 1 Your attack interferes with your opponent's attack.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged or melee with light blade)
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or melee with light blade), and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or melee with light blade) at 21st level.
Weapon Trick
Armsman Attack 1 Your attack leaves your opponent less able to defend against your next attack.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged or melee with light blade)
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or melee with light blade), and you gain a +2 bonus to the next attack roll you make against the target before the end of your next turn.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or melee with light blade) at 21st level.
Level 1 Encounter Exploit
Power Surge
Armsman Attack 1 A surge of adrenaline allows you to hit hard.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 1[W] damage.
Level 1 Daily Exploit
Dazing Luck
Armsman Attack 1 A lucky hit hinders your opponent for a short while.
Daily * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 1[W] damage and the target is dazed until the end of your next turn.
Level 2 Utility Exploit
Dart and Sprint
Armsman Utility 2 A surge of adrenaline allows you to move quickly.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action
Personal
Effect: You may shift one square. You also gain a +2 bonus to your speed until the start of your next turn.
Level 3 Encounter Exploit
Swift Surge
Armsman Attack 3 A surge of adrenaline allows you to make two quick, simple attacks.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged or melee with light blade), two attacks. You may make any combination of melee and ranged attacks, and you may target a different creature with each attack.
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or melee with light blade) per attack.
Level 5 Daily Exploit
Lucky Graze
Armsman Attack 5 A lucky hit gets through your opponent's defences.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged or melee with light blade)
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or 4[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or melee with light blade).
Miss: Half damage.
Special: If the target does not take damage from this power, it is not expended.
Level 6 Utility Exploit
Combat Vigor
Armsman Utility 6 A surge of adrenaline grants you greater endurance.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action
Personal
Effect: You gain temporary hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier. If you are bloodied, the number of temporary hit points you gain equals 5 + half your level + your Constitution modifier instead.
Level 7 Encounter Exploit
Follow-Up Surge
Armsman Attack 7 A surge of adrenaline spurs you to follow up on a successful attack.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you may make a melee or ranged basic attack against the target.
Level 9 Daily Exploit
Devastating Luck
Armsman Attack 9 A lucky hit threatens a vulnerable spot on your opponent.
Daily * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 3[W] damage.
Level 10 Utility Exploit
Combat Resilience
Armsman Utility 10 A surge of adrenaline allows you to recover more quickly.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action
Personal
Effect: You gain a power bonus to all saving throws equal to your Constitution modifier until the start of your next turn.
Level 13 Encounter Exploit
Furious Surge
Armsman Attack 13 A surge of adrenaline allows you to hit harder.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 2[W] damage.
Level 15 Daily Exploit
Stunning Luck
Armsman Attack 15 A lucky hit leaves your opponent unable to act for a short while.
Daily * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 2[W] damage and the target is stunned until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: The target is dazed until the end of your next turn.
Level 16 Utility Exploit
Combat Evasion
Armsman Utility 16 A surge of adrenaline allows you to reduce the effect of an attack.
Encounter * Martial
Immediate Interrupt
Personal
Trigger: You are hit by an attack
Effect: You take half damage from the attack. If the attack imposes an effect that a save can end, you may make an immediate saving throw against the effect.
Level 17 Encounter Exploit
Rapid Surge
Armsman Attack 17 A surge of adrenaline allows you to make three quick, simple attacks.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Targets: One, two or three creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged or melee with light blade), three attacks. You may make any combination of melee and ranged attacks, and you may target a different creature with each attack.
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or melee with light blade) per attack.
Level 19 Daily Exploit
Lucky Break
Armsman Attack 19 A lucky hit breaks through your opponent's defences.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged or melee with light blade)
Hit: 6[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee or ranged with heavy thrown weapon) or 6[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged or melee with light blade).
Miss: Half damage.
Special: If the target does not take damage from this power, it is not expended.
Level 22 Utility Exploit
Lucky Dodge
Armsman Utility 22 A stroke of luck enables you to avoid an attack.
Daily * Martial
Immediate Interrupt
Personal
Trigger: You are hit by an attack
Effect: The attack misses.
Level 23 Encounter Exploit
Follow-Through Surge
Armsman Attack 23 A surge of adrenaline spurs you to follow through with a successful attack.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you may use the same armsman at-will attack power or another armsman at-will attack power against the target.
Level 25 Daily Exploit
Deadly Luck
Armsman Attack 25 A lucky hit threatens a vital spot on your opponent.
Daily * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 5[W] damage.
Level 27 Encounter Exploit
Destructive Surge
Armsman Attack 27 A surge of adrenaline allows you to hit even harder.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 3[W] damage.
Level 29 Daily Exploit
Incapacitating Luck
Armsman Attack 29 A lucky hit leaves your opponent helpless for a short while.
Daily * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action
Effect: Use an armsman at-will attack power. If the attack hits, you deal an additional 3[W] damage and the target is unconscious until the end of your next turn or until it takes damage. Aftereffect: The target is stunned until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: The target is dazed until the end of your next turn.
With the right power choices, I think the Wizard is actually the easiest PHB class--It doesn't have any special complicated mechanics like marking or quarry, or channel divinity. Just point your implement and boom!
In PHB2, the sorcerer, for pretty much the same reason.
__________________ In California? Enjoy gaming? Then you don't want to miss PolyCon.
I haven't really seen this problem thus far. I just started playing in a new game, wherein two of the members had never played 4e and one guy had never played a (TT)RPG before and they were honestly fine. The newb is playing a dwarven fighter and seems thrilled with the character. Of course, they're not 100% efficient with their characters (we've only played one session so far) but they handled them respectably.
If a player feels intimidated by class complexity, one idea would be to let them play a monster NPC for a session or two. You'd need a tweak or two to make it work properly (they'd need PC equivalent healing surges for starters, but those shouldn't be difficult to assign based on role). I don't think there is anything easier to run in 4e than a monster.
the wizard is more complicated than, say, the rogue.
Not by much. I don't think the wizard is particularly complicated compared to other 4e classes and of course, previous edition wizards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaalis
I don't want to say 4E is 'dumbed down' but it is much less complex IMHO than some of the previous iterations of character building
this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rechan
Except that I don't think anyone who has played the game longer than three sessions would enjoy that.
Aside from serious newbies who are intimidated by options, I just cannot conceive of players who want fewer choices.
and this.
Of course newcomers could use some guidance in character creation, but I don't believe the problem is the abundance of options in play. I think the difficulty for beginners lies in all the marks and conditions during combat, and that affects every character.
__________________
_ Ceterum censeo the encounter/daily power system is an unholy blight upon D&Ddom
5e can't come soon enough
I'd agree with some that once it's actually built, the wizard is pretty simple to play. At least if you play it as a striker-secondary blaster. It can be a bit more complicated to play an honest-to-God controller wizard.
But really, there are any number of classes that are reasonably simple to play (although they all have a lot of choices during character creation, the number of options goes way down once you actually start play).
Paladin. The mark is pretty straightforward, and the powers can be chosen to be simple.
Cleric. All you have are attack powers and a heal.
Rogue. Other than the presence or absence of combat advantage, your powers are all straightforward.
Wizard. The only tricky bit can be keeping your allies out of your blasts/bursts.
Swordmage. Some of the powers are tricky, and the teleporting aegises (sp?) can be a bit much for a newb, but a shielding swordmage can be built for simplicity fairly easily.
Ranger. Archer is easier because you don't have to keep your main and off-hand weapon stats separate.
Sorcerer. Blast away. You can choose a power suite with fewer lingering effects (the one I play specifically aims for the ones that have further effects triggered on subsequent turns) and stay away from chaos, but there is room in the class for a simple blaster.
It would also be good to keep the races simple too. Genasi can be complicated, for instance. Including a consideration for roleplay, the simplest races include:
Human, duh.
Halflings and Elves get simple reroll racial powers - easy enough.
The dragonborn breath attack is simple enough, but many people, even experienced ones, forget the attack bonus while bloodied.
Dwarf - simple.
Half-orc is pretty simple.
The main point I'd like to make, though, is that if the character is already made for the new person (or at least an experienced person helps with the creation), then a simple-enough character can be made from any of several classes, even some classes for which there are other more complicated options that are avoided.
Hmm. Perhaps my experience with newcomers is abnormal, then. It appears, at least judging by these replies, that the need for such a class may not be as widespread as I'd thought.
__________________ Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Dark
I started up a group new to role playing to play 4e. It seems patience, plenty of advice and letting them learn from their own mistakes rather than messing with the rules is the best approach. Anyway, you would need a whole bunch of simple classes for a group like this.
And different coloured dice, those d20s & d12s look so alike, even after 3 months. Doh.
But there's one thing about the game that does bug me a little, and it's this. In every prior edition, there were always a few deliberately simple options for someone brand new to the game, who hadn't yet gotten their minds around the rules. You could always hand the newcomer the fighter or the thief/rogue and say "Go." Perhaps they wouldn't be using the class to its full potential, but there was a minimum of difficulty in learning how to use it, and--for those intimidated by character creation (something that I have seen more than once), a minimum of choices to make.
There's no "beginner class" in 4E. Oh, certainly the PHB2 classes are a bit more complex than those in the first PHB, and the wizard is more complicated than, say, the rogue. But there's nothing you can just hand someone who's barely learned the combat rules and say "Play this." The two old standbys, the fighter and the rogue, have their own complexities--the combat challenge, maneuvering for sneak attack, etc.--and, of course their vast array of powers.
Well, similar to the above if the rogue's not getting sneak attack very often then they're not using the class to its "full potential" as you say. That doesn't mean they can't play the class.
Similarly, with respect to the power choices, you can "hand" someone a premade rogue as easily as you could hand them a rogue in earlier editions. New players should probably not make their own first character, I don't think this is any different than past editions.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
Hmm. Perhaps my experience with newcomers is abnormal, then. It appears, at least judging by these replies, that the need for such a class may not be as widespread as I'd thought.
Dude, this is the internet. Your opinion, once given, cannot be revised or rescinded.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
Hmm. Perhaps my experience with newcomers is abnormal, then. It appears, at least judging by these replies, that the need for such a class may not be as widespread as I'd thought.
Well Ari I'll be the dissenting voice and say I think you're right. I lost a player when I decided to try out 4e. Now in 3.5 he always and I mean literally always played a half-orc barbarian or fighter. He was what I would definitely consider a casual player... didn't read the books between games, or plan out builds, but just wanted a simple character to have fun with friends, roll some dice and kill monsters with, all with a minimal expenditure of complication. He did a little roleplaying, always made us laugh and was in general a fun guy to game with.
When we play tested 4e, I gave him a pre-made Dwarf-Fighter and he ended up quitting the group. Seriously after one game session. I mean choosing whether it's the right time to use a daily or an encounter or an at-will... and if it's an at-will what at-will and who should he mark, and what positioning as a "defender" should he take, and how to manipulate terrain in the best way... well let's just say after a hard week of work I don't think he wanted this much complexity in what had originally been a pretty easy character to play.
Now I know many people don't understand why someone would like less options, but for some gamers the investment in learning what all of these options do as well as how and when best to use them not to mention the multi-layered decision making process of choosing them, etc. just isn't worth the reward. I think of it as akin to checkers and chess... in earlier editions one could play either one depending on choice of class and still have a good time with friends. Now however, it feels like chess is the only option, and just like in the real world it's not everyone's cup of tea for fun. Honestly, in the end it's imaginary warriors killing imaginary monsters, and how complex you want that to be is all subjective.
Note: for those who claim... if you aren't willing to put in the work, or don't enjoy the complexity you shouldn't be playing...let's just remember that before (in all previous editions) you had the choice to engage elevated complexity or not... now for the first time there isn't a choice.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
) I enjoy the vast majority of the aspects of gameplay, and many of the omissions I missed were mitigated by PHB2.
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