Adventures PC death early in a combat. What to do?

[NewJeffCT]

I'm running a 3.5E game that is getting fairly high in level now (Two year anniversary of the 1st session is next month). The party is all at level 16 and there are 7 PCs in the party (human Sorcerer, human Rogue-Spellthief, elf Fighter-Paladin, goliath Barbarian, halfling Psion, human Cleric and dwarf Fighter) There is also one elf cohort/apprentice type that is level 12 or 13.

They have a big combat coming up tomorrow night, but I'm worried that the two BBEGs can take out a couple of PCs early in the combat. For example, if evil bad guy one does a "Wail of the Banshee" and two PCs fail their save vs death, the party cleric won't be able to do a "Revivify" on two fallen players - only one. Resurrection is not an option in combat with its 10 minute casting time.

And, I know an option is to not use "Save or Die" spells/powers, but I think to play a really evil and high level bad guy correctly, you kind of need to put that fear into the players.

But, my question is - what does the player do in that situation?
1) Sit there idly and twiddle their thumbs
2) Go home for the night and/or plan out their new character.
3) Run some of the BBEG's minions?
4) Have them run the cohort/apprentice?
5) Create an NPC to tag along that a player can run in the meantime?
6) Other options? Please let me know.

Thanks!

[malkav666]

Let them run some of the bad guys

love,

malkav

[ExploderWizard]

" Yes, I know a stalker died. Well, it is a combat sport...."

Running one of the BBEG's is great. It gives the player a new toy to play with in the short term without having to play a flunkie for the rest of the PC's.

Let the player know that he/she will get some kind of bonus/goodie to thier replacement PC if the Big Bad performs particularly well. This kind of gives the player some incentive to play the new role to the hilt and pull no punches.

[Vorput]

4) Have them run the cohort/apprentice?

Would be how I handle it. You could also offer to let them control any summoned creatures the party makes.

5) Create an NPC to tag along that a player can run in the meantime?

Some sort of monster NPC might be a good idea to. An outsider (like an Angel or elemental [but not a straight elemental] of some kind). You'd have to figure out how they show up in the fight, but running something like an Astral Deva or a Trumpet Archon makes a nice diversion, is a lot of fun to do once in awhile- and will still allow them an opportunity (albeit a lessened one) to make an impact on the battle.

Perhaps the cleric is told to cast Planar ally before the battle or something?

[Thanee]

If that happens, you need to give two players something to do, since Revivify cannot prevent the death of even one of them against Wail of the Banshee, BTW.

Bye
Thanee

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

" Yes, I know a stalker died. Well, it is a combat sport...."

Running one of the BBEG's is great. It gives the player a new toy to play with in the short term without having to play a flunkie for the rest of the PC's.

Let the player know that he/she will get some kind of bonus/goodie to thier replacement PC if the Big Bad performs particularly well. This kind of gives the player some incentive to play the new role to the hilt and pull no punches.

Well, assuming the party cleric is not the one killed, it's kind of in the stages of the campaign where the killed player(s) will get a Resurrection spell cast upon them after the combat.

But, an XP bonus for a good job running the bad guy is a good idea even if the PCs are raised afterwards.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Thanee

If that happens, you need to give two players something to do, since Revivify cannot prevent the death of even one of them against Wail of the Banshee, BTW.

Bye
Thanee

I don't see anything in the spell description of Revivify that would prevent it from saving one PC if cast on them within one round of death? It says "miraculously restores life to a recently deceased creature" and must be cast within 1 round of the victim's death before the soul completely leaves the body. I think the part about it functioning like Raise Dead applies to poisons, diseases, ability damage, etc?

I could be wrong, however.

[Nifft]

Tell the player that she's dead IN REAL LIFE, too.

Point at her and yell at her if the player attracts attention. "Get out, you're dead!"

That'll teach her to play a Rogue.

Cheers, -- N

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Nifft

Tell the player that she's dead IN REAL LIFE, too.

Point at her and yell at her if the player attracts attention. "Get out, you're dead!"

That'll teach her to play a Rogue.

Cheers, -- N

"No, not Blackleaf! I'm going to die!!!"

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

And, I know an option is to not use "Save or Die" spells/powers, but I think to play a really evil and high level bad guy correctly, you kind of need to put that fear into the players.

You know, there's an option between "Don't use save-or-die" and "use it first thing in the combat". You don't have to use the bad guy's nuke to strike fear into the party. If nothing else, staring with one of the most powerful hits is a bad idea for that, as players will recognize it as a spent resource that isn't coming back again.

In all likelihood, if the bad guys are the right sort of challenge, they don't have a lot of those sorts of abilities. The bad guys are intelligent, right? They are going to be tactically smart about when and where they use those heavy-hitting spells. And right at the start of the fight may not be the best time to use them, especially if the bad guy is thinking about his or her own survival, especially.

So, for example, the evil wizard is going to save Wail of the Banshee for when he's got a couple/few of the party almost on top of him - not at the first shot in the fight, when he doesn't know if he's hit the real dangers or not.

[Obryn]

I'll go ahead and disagree with Umbran here. If you know you're facing a potentially-deadly combat, you should try to take out as many of the opposing forces as you can, right away. Opening with Wail of the Banshee is a great way to start - your players would do the same to them, after all. (Also, if they don't drop it on round one, given the way high-level 3e parties can mess with a bad guy, they may never get to drop it.)

If there's a surviving cohort they could take over, that's the best option, IMO. Summoned creatures, too - those are a good idea.

I like letting the player take over a BBEG in theory - but in practice, opponents of this high level take a lot of prep work to run properly. You will know what spells and whatnot the guy has; odds are you know what they do, if you went through the SRD and catalogued them all. The player will not have this prep time. (Of course, if the foe is mostly just a thug who hits things hard, ignore everything I just said. )

-O

[Brandigan]

3) Run some of the BBEG's minions

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Umbran

You know, there's an option between "Don't use save-or-die" and "use it first thing in the combat". You don't have to use the bad guy's nuke to strike fear into the party. If nothing else, staring with one of the most powerful hits is a bad idea for that, as players will recognize it as a spent resource that isn't coming back again.

In all likelihood, if the bad guys are the right sort of challenge, they don't have a lot of those sorts of abilities. The bad guys are intelligent, right? They are going to be tactically smart about when and where they use those heavy-hitting spells. And right at the start of the fight may not be the best time to use them, especially if the bad guy is thinking about his or her own survival, especially.

So, for example, the evil wizard is going to save Wail of the Banshee for when he's got a couple/few of the party almost on top of him - not at the first shot in the fight, when he doesn't know if he's hit the real dangers or not.

True, you can't really drop a Power Word Kill in the first round of combat because every PC save the sorcerer has over 100 hit points and would be unaffected by it. Of course, the wizard could use it to take out the Sorcerer in that first round?

However, if the wizard dropped a quickened Fireball, followed by a Chain Lightning in round 1, it would wear down the party hit point wise, likely also leaving the cleric and rogue/spellthief vulnerable to PWK as well.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Obryn

I'll go ahead and disagree with Umbran here. If you know you're facing a potentially-deadly combat, you should try to take out as many of the opposing forces as you can, right away.

That really depends on your goals for the encounter, what powers are at your disposal, and the details of the tactical situation.

If outright sheer survival in the short term is your goal, you simply leave. Teleport away, or somesuch.

If the combat is taking place outdoors, such that the party can engage from range, and are spread out, Wail of the Banshee could be an awful waste of power, as it only has a 40' radius, and you may only get one or two of the party members in the area of effect in the fist place, much less kill them all.

Also, if the party is knowingly entering the encounter, they are coming in at maximum buff - and the individuals shake off the Wail with a simple Fortitude save, which will probably be highest for the first couple/few of rounds of the fight.

If the bad guys know the PC's capabilities, they will tend to target the ones that seem most dangerous, if they don't know the PC's, they'll tend to target the ones that seem most dangerous, which are not necessarily the same thing.

And lastly, personality does matter - even among tactical geniuses, each has an individual style. If the villain is a coward at heart, he will keep a reserve to save his own bacon (actually, even if he isn't - reserves are SOP in real-world combat engagements).

And so on.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I thought "run, run as fast as you can".
If the PCs also have a (useable) save or die spell, it shouldn't be a big problem. If they have, taking over an NPC (be it enemy or ally) is probably your best bet.

There are only few "save or die" or even just "die" spells that require a weakened party, but using them would certainly be a good choice, too.

[Kid Charlemagne]

This is why I like to have an NPC or two tagging along with the party. It gives a player some method to contribute if their PC gets incapacitated for more than a round or two.

[Rechan]

I personally agree with Umbran. But from a different angle.

3e has a lot of debuffing spells. I'd slap a Bestow Curse on a weak target, and make them take a Con penalty. That drops their HP and their Fort save for the oncoming Wail. In fact, if you could chain or twin or whathaveyou Bestow Curse, you hit multiple targets with it and then wail on them.

Or combine BC to hit their saves, have an ally hit them with a con-draining poison, then next round Wail them.

Boom. Or, Enervation is another good investment.

[Akaiku]

Don't forget to point out how Soulfire armor is a good solid investment and death ward isn't that hard for a cleric to cast before bbeg fights....

At 16th level, most parties have realized that negative energy sucks and they should never have to deal with it ever again.

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by Rechan

I personally agree with Umbran. But from a different angle.

3e has a lot of debuffing spells. I'd slap a Bestow Curse on a weak target, and make them take a Con penalty. That drops their HP and their Fort save for the oncoming Wail. In fact, if you could chain or twin or whathaveyou Bestow Curse, you hit multiple targets with it and then wail on them.

Or combine BC to hit their saves, have an ally hit them with a con-draining poison, then next round Wail them.

Boom. Or, Enervation is another good investment.

And, at higher levels, you have Mage's Disjunction and Dispel Magic-Chain, among other spells.

[GlassJaw]

Action Points!!