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It's also a huge step back from 3e and from every other RPG developer in existance. Even White Wolf and their at times shady view towards websites is better then this.
You're praising WotC for giving you an STD instead of AIDs.
True, but also recognizing the fact at least they are moving in the right direction. While not as far as we would like. I'm willing to watch them take the baby steps needed.
The thing is negative feedback alone won't change things. If they see you like a direction, but feel it's not enough they are more likely to act on it than if you just say "thanks for nothing".
Really it isn't a policy that effects me at all, as I don't run any 'fan sites' (least not public ones) for D&D. Doesn't mean I'm not willing to, I just remember the darker days of anything looking D&D related got you the big old C&D from TSR.
I attribute this policy as much like the current PDF policy. If you make it so fans don't want to agree to it, they will just do it without your permission if they are of the mindset. The only way to get a PDF of a book is to download it from a pirate now. The only way to have a 'fan site' that you distribute (any webpage could be construed as distribution unless you turn off all Cut/Copy/Print permissions) anything is to simply ignore the existing policy.
Step towards the right direction, but too unclear if they will continue down that path or have this as a checkbox to their fan request list.
__________________ Bill
The Yeti aka Magnus the Archmage
~"Henry Bowman lives within each and everyone of us, and it's time to start acting like it. " A Story Hour set in Valus by Funeris http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=97346
Side note - I was wondering when WotC's next hilarious customer service blowout would happen
Very true they do seem to have them regularly now a days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avin
Hey The Rouse, break the boss door and ask for a raise dude :P
Honestly for as much grief as many of us put him through with him unable to just freely speak his mind he should.
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So how long till these threads are merged?
__________________ Bill
The Yeti aka Magnus the Archmage
~"Henry Bowman lives within each and everyone of us, and it's time to start acting like it. " A Story Hour set in Valus by Funeris http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=97346
The more I read this, the more hilariously and obscenely dumb this is.
"Inaccurate, Obscene or Libelous Statements Prohibited. Wizards welcomes and encourages honest discussion and opinions about all Wizards products on Fan Sites. However, we cannot allow Wizards Materials be used on any Fan Site that promotes sexually explicit materials, violence, discrimination or illegal activities, or makes disparaging, libelous or dishonest statements about Wizards and/or its products, employees and agents. We know you'll keep it clean. We Invite You to Ask Wizards"
"or makes disparaging, libelous or dishonest statements about Wizards and/or its products, employees and agents"
Don't get me wrong - I'm sure this was made in a strictly sterile legal environment. But do these people even know what the internet is? Do they think the fan sites are all "LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT HOW MUCH I LOVE DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS" and nothing else?
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
"or makes disparaging, libelous or dishonest statements about Wizards and/or its products, employees and agents"
Don't get me wrong - I'm sure this was made in a strictly sterile legal environment. But do these people even know what the internet is? Do they think the fan sites are all "LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT HOW MUCH I LOVE DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS" and nothing else?
"Disparaging" is a bit vague but "libelous" and "dishonest" are clear enough.
"If you lie about our products to make us look bad we won't let you use our trademarked material." Seems relatively fair.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
"or makes disparaging, libelous or dishonest statements about Wizards and/or its products, employees and agents"
Don't get me wrong - I'm sure this was made in a strictly sterile legal environment. But do these people even know what the internet is? Do they think the fan sites are all "LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT HOW MUCH I LOVE DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS" and nothing else?
I am assuming you are not objecting to the dishonest or libelous parts.
As for disparaging... there's a line between critique and ridicule, you know.
You can say, "I don't like this, for reasons X, Y, and Z," and not be disparaging. However, I see no reason why Wizards should open doors to "fan" sites that say, "Wizards is a bunch of bleepitybleeps, who couldn't find their bleeps if you stabled them to their bleeps."
I am assuming you are not objecting to the dishonest or libelous parts.
As for disparaging... there's a line between critique and ridicule, you know.
You can say, "I don't like this, for reasons X, Y, and Z," and not be disparaging. However, I see no reason why Wizards should open doors to "fan" sites that say, "Wizards is a bunch of bleepitybleeps, who couldn't find their bleeps if you stabled them to their bleeps."
But who makes the line?
There is a line between critique and ridicule, but you, the person taking the license, don't know what that line is. Nor will you ever know, until you accidentally or not cross it. It could be anywhere from "Wizards is a bunch of bleepitybleeps" to giving a negative review about a splat book. Disparaging could be as far as simply giving a critique on a product.
I think the overwhelming problem is that Wizards wants fan sites to be nothing more then "MAN D&D IS SO WICKED AWESOME." You can't host adventures on it - ever - and we still have no word on what is or is not allowed as far as homebrewed classes, races, monsters, etc. Instead we have this weird license that takes away your ability to do a whole freaking lot of things, but DUDE, YOU TOTALLY GET A SWEET BANNER IN RETURN!
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
There is a line between critique and ridicule, but you, the person taking the license, don't know what that line is. Nor will you ever know, until you accidentally or not cross it. It could be anywhere from "Wizards is a bunch of bleepitybleeps" to giving a negative review about a splat book. Disparaging could be as far as simply giving a critique on a product.
Have you looked at the WotC forums anytime recently?? The sheer number of posts accusing the WotC developers of incompetence and complete ignorance that remain should give you a pretty good idea of where the line is.
And as has been said before, the policy only applies to people who wish to use the Fan Site Kit. It seems to me that all of the bloggers out there have been able to blog about WotC (positively and negatively) without having any problem or worries.
Have you looked at the WotC forums anytime recently?? The sheer number of posts accusing the WotC developers of incompetence and complete ignorance that remain should give you a pretty good idea of where the line is.
And as has been said before, the policy only applies to people who wish to use the Fan Site Kit. It seems to me that all of the bloggers out there have been able to blog about WotC (positively and negatively) without having any problem or worries.
I'm not trying to say WotC is the big bad $W$O$T$C$ or anything. I'm just saying that this lisence is really, really, really dumb and like the complete opposite of what people have been asking from WotC for the past YEAR.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
But I think you're considering the word "disparaging" in isolation from the other two used. Taken together, it's a pretty clear indication of what they won't accept, as Umbran pointed out.
Unless, of course, you're objecting to the "libelous" and "dishonest" parts, in which case I can't help you.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
Have you looked at the WotC forums anytime recently?? The sheer number of posts accusing the WotC developers of incompetence and complete ignorance that remain should give you a pretty good idea of where the line is.
Let me predict right now that wotc will shut down their forums within the next two years. GW did it and I expect wotc will too.
But I think you're considering the word "disparaging" in isolation from the other two used. Taken together, it's a pretty clear indication of what they won't accept, as Umbran pointed out.
Unless, of course, you're objecting to the "libelous" and "dishonest" parts, in which case I can't help you.
The libelous and dishonesty parts I'm not complaining about. Again, I'm not saying WotC is evil. Just...kinda thick right now.
The GW comparison is amusing as, when I linked this to other people, their immidiate responses were all "Sounds like something GW would do."
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
It occurs to me that this isn't a fan site policy so much as it gives you the opportunity to talk about the PHB and post an image of it's cover without WotC having to deal with whether or not that's okay or if they have to go protect their intellectual property over it.
I mean, seriously... why get bent out of shape over it? Don't like the rules? Don't download the package and use their trade dress on your website. Why does everything have to be a conspiracy against us?
__________________ The Last Word: We could tell you, but then it would have to kill you. --Piratecat
In my opinion, all this anger is much ado about nothing. You can develop fan-made adventures and post them on your site using the GSL, you can post a fansite and talk about the products and share your chars and adventures, etc (like a campaign blog), but if you want to use the fan-site trade dress, you can't be a jerk about what you say regarding WOTC.
I mean, really, its NOT that bad...
WOTC does something to "open things up" a bit (and, yes, its just a baby step) and everyone goes all godzilla beacuse it wasn't the utopian, open-ended license that everyone expects. And what people expect is subjective, anyway.
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
Try to not let failure to use technical language properly get in the way of getting to the real point under discussion. - Umbran
Characters & Games
Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
I think instead of immediately jumping on the WoTC is EVIL AND WRONG! bandwagon, let's look at this from a different point of view.
They have provided a kit full of their images, artwork, logos and branding. They say, look, some people want to put D&D fansites together, and they would like to use our logos, branding, and trade dress. Logos, branding, and trade dress are EXTREMELY valuable assets. So we need to come up with a policy to let people use them, WITHOUT harming the brand.
So let's look at some of the "complaints". "OMG YOU CANT PUBLISH ADVENTURES!?!?!" So what WotC is basically saying is, you can use our branding and trade dress for a site, but we don't want you to use the branding on an adventure, because that you seem like you are passing off your product as "official" when we have absolutely no control over the quality and content. People putting out crappy adventures with the official D&D tradedress can effect the D&D brand.
The other is "offense content and slanderous statements on the products". Basically the same thing. They don't want you to use their official logos and artwork to create a fan site and then slam the product. Someone who doesn't follow this stuff 100% happens across a site with all the D&D official images and logos and see comments slamming the products will get turned off the product, that hurts the brand. WotC doesn't want to help you hurt them.
I think alot of people just like to hem and haw about how WotC is evil and this is a horrible descision and write really angry posts. People really just need to sit back, take a breath, chill, and be cool. Call up some of your friends, get together, and play some D&D. Have fun, have a great time, and don't worry so much.
I'm just saying that this lisence is really, really, really dumb and like the complete opposite of what people have been asking from WotC for the past YEAR.
I think your hyperbole does you and your position a disservice.
If people have been asking for the real opposite, a license that says, "You may use content that WotC spent money and effort developing to make fun of and insult WotC," well, I think they are being unreasonable.
If "people" aren't asking for that, then you are not clearly stating what they really are asking for. If you intend to speak for others, you should at least take a bit more care in representing them, hm?
And be realistic. No license ever really clearly spells out exactly what may and may not be said, because language and human communication is too flexible. They'd have to cover every case anyone could ever think of, and the license would be unusable if they did so.
Worry about the spirit and intent, not the letter of the law, especially for a fan site, which shouldn't be making you money or the like anyway.
I'm still trying to digest all of this. Like many here, I'm pretty disappointed. After all, how many of us have written D&D rules, adventures, etc. to post on a website?
Some other questions I would like to see clarified...
1. E-commerce - Does this include selling D&D 4th edition products as an Amazon associate? What about novels tied to one of the D&D worlds?
I don't see the harm in this, as you're supporting the sale of WotC's products. What if any funds that come from that go right back into the cost of the site? Still, by the wording of this policy, that's all a no-no.
2. What about sites that include rules other than 4e? What if I use rules for a prior edition, or what if I create True20 conversion rules?
Thing is, this is technically a licence, not a general policy. As such, the rules within it only apply to you if you accept it. If you don't accept it, the standard fair use and copyright laws still apply.
By accepting it, you gain the right to use some piccies. You lose the right to make disparaging remarks about WotC on your site (they explicitly note you also lose the right to make libellous and dishonest comments, but that's one you never had anyway). You also give up the right to post certain kinds of fan-created content.Some may regard that as a fair exchange. They can accept the licence.
Personally, I'll wait for one that is more in-line with what I'm allowed to do anyway. I'm not going to sign my rights away for a few piccies.
I think your hyperbole does you and your position a disservice.
If people have been asking for the real opposite, a license that says, "You may use content that WotC spent money and effort developing to make fun of and insult WotC," well, I think they are being unreasonable.
If "people" aren't asking for that, then you are not clearly stating what they really are asking for. If you intend to speak for others, you should at least take a bit more care in representing them, hm?
And be realistic. No license ever really clearly spells out exactly what may and may not be said, because language and human communication is too flexible. They'd have to cover every case anyone could ever think of, and the license would be unusable if they did so.
Worry about the spirit and intent, not the letter of the law, especially for a fan site, which shouldn't be making you money or the like anyway.
Allow me to clarify - it's not the details of the license that's the opposite, it's that it's a license period. There were a lot of questions about what was and was not allowable on a fan sight, and this answered...well, almost none of them.
It does let us know that adventures and modules are never allowed though, so that's...an answer, I guess?
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
You can develop fan-made adventures and post them on your site using the GSL
Now, that may be the intent, but that is not what the GSL actually says. It expressly forbids websites, as I quoted above. It does say adventures can be in single download digital book format, but the website itself is forbidden under GSL.
Say I create a website "Mercutio01's free adventures for 4E." That website's forbidden under GSL. The actual adventures might be okay, but the website is not. Now, the policy for websites is the fansite policy, which forbids my created adventures. I could link to where there are free adventures from WotC or other publishers, but I couldn't host my own on that site. So the website would be okay, so long as there are no adventures hosted there.
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