General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Thing is, this is technically a licence, not a general policy. As such, the rules within it only apply to you if you accept it. If you don't accept it, the standard fair use and copyright laws still apply.
By accepting it, you gain the right to use some piccies. You lose the right to make disparaging remarks about WotC on your site (they explicitly note you also lose the right to make libellous and dishonest comments, but that's one you never had anyway). You also give up the right to post certain kinds of fan-created content.Some may regard that as a fair exchange. They can accept the licence.
Personally, I'll wait for one that is more in-line with what I'm allowed to do anyway. I'm not going to sign my rights away for a few piccies.
That is a good point. Thinking about this some more, as long as "I don't accept the fan site license nor the GSL, but I still want to have a fair-use based fan site" is a viable option, then I have no problem with it.
It will still have been nice for WotC to produce a policy not a license that could be a nice mutual understanding between WotC and fans of what fair use they would both be comfortable with. (Of course, some people would complain that WotC could change their mind at any moment and sue your mom, but some people will complain about anything. I do think a general policy statement rather than restrictive license would have generated far, far fewer complaints.)
But in light of what Ashtagon said, yeah, fan sites can just continue in the same nebulous grey area we always have.
1) What does this say about fan sites that don't want to use the "kit" of graphics and assorted trade dress? Does
2) As kenmarable asks, what about a site like EN World that doesn't produce adventures or mechanics per se but has plenty of people posting about their homebrew stuff?
3) To continue that line of thinking, what about a site like Candlekeep, whose entire purpose is the discussion of WotC trademarked material? They can't even use the GSL to post fan creations for that, since the GSL doesn't cover settings, just mechanics (which isn't the focus anyway).
If you have no interest in using the trade dress, then sure why not? The license itself says that you accept it by using the content of the kit on your site, so don't do that. Produce your stuff and don't let WOTC logo get near it to avoid any confusion.
Now, that may be the intent, but that is not what the GSL actually says. It expressly forbids websites, as I quoted above. It does say adventures can be in single download digital book format, but the website itself is forbidden under GSL.
Say I create a website "Mercutio01's free adventures for 4E." That website's forbidden under GSL. The actual adventures might be okay, but the website is not. Now, the policy for websites is the fansite policy, which forbids my created adventures. I could link to where there are free adventures from WotC or other publishers, but I couldn't host my own on that site. So the website would be okay, so long as there are no adventures hosted there.
Seems like a Catch-22 to me.
But again, I very well could be reading it wrong.
The website is the means of distribution, it is not the GSL licensed product. The licensed content is in the PDF, not the HTML linking to the PDF.
Neither license is relevant at all to RPGNow, for example.
The GW comparison is amusing as, when I linked this to other people, their immidiate responses were all "Sounds like something GW would do."
Well, on at least one other forum the immediate response was "It's T$R all over again! The lawsuits are next!" so I'm not sure I'd put much stock in the immediate responses.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
Yes, it is. So if you don't use the content covered by the license (the stuff in the kit), the license does not apply to your site!
Yes, I grasp that ;p
The problem is, after a year of people asking for some understanding on what is or is not allowable for a fan site, this has been WotC's response.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Yes, it is. So if you don't use the content covered by the license (the stuff in the kit), the license does not apply to your site!
I think this is the key to everything. People have been acting all day as if WotC had made some TSR-like rules applying to every single blog, fansite or whatnot about D&D. But truth of the matter is, as you say, that if you do not use the license, the "rules" do not apply to your website, and thus nothing has changed since two days ago.
But yeah, as is, it's pretty much useless and they missed a great opportunity - again.
__________________
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Parenthetically, photostat copies of the manuscript rules were made, and when the commercial game was published, fans not willing or financially unable to expend the princely sum of $10 for the product did likewise, copying the material on school (mainly college/university) machines. We were well aware of this, and many gamers who had spent their hard-earned money to buy the game were more irate than we were. In all, though, the 'pirate' material was more helpful that not. Many new fans were made by DMs who were using such copies to run their games. - Gary Gygax
Say I create a website "Mercutio01's free adventures for 4E." That website's forbidden under GSL. The actual adventures might be okay, but the website is not. Now, the policy for websites is the fansite policy, which forbids my created adventures. I could link to where there are free adventures from WotC or other publishers, but I couldn't host my own on that site. So the website would be okay, so long as there are no adventures hosted there.
I don't really see how... You can have your website with the fan-site trade dress.
Then you can include PDF downloads on your website of your adventures, subject to the GSL. Those are, themselves, bound to the constraints of the GSL.
It all seems kosher to me. You can set up a website, and let people download your GSL-compliant stuff. Your website itself should not be the product, though, because that is forbidden by the GSL.
I don't think dungeon-a-day style stuff is forbidden, either, as some have speculated. Host them in PDF form, each room its own thing. It's how I'd probably do it if I wanted to do such a thing.
So remind me why I should be upset by any of this?
The website is the means of distribution, it is not the GSL licensed product. The licensed content is in the PDF, not the HTML linking to the PDF.
Neither license is relevant at all to RPGNow, for example.
It does seem to preclude, for example, an adventure built as a set of web pages with links to character statistics, references to rules, and so on that could be interactively used or reviewed over the web. That strikes me as unfortunate and unnecessary.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
I don't really see how... You can have your website with the fan-site trade dress.
Then you can include PDF downloads on your website of your adventures, subject to the GSL. Those are, themselves, bound to the constraints of the GSL.
It all seems kosher to me. You can set up a website, and let people download your GSL-compliant stuff. Your website itself should not be the product, though, because that is forbidden by the GSL.
I don't think dungeon-a-day style stuff is forbidden, either, as some have speculated. Host them in PDF form, each room its own thing. It's how I'd probably do it if I wanted to do such a thing.
So remind me why I should be upset by any of this?
-O
I expect continual growth items like room-a-day (not dungeon-a-day) are walking on the wrong side of the GSL. Section 3 stipulates single-download product. Having a single adventure split over multiple pdfs won't qualify.
One example of something that is reasonable for a fan site and ostensibly isn't allowed under the current rule is posting my group's progress through an adventure alongside original adventure encounters as written. I was toying with this approach for a campiagn using a different system. I think it could be an interesting approach to demonstrate group dynamics and tactical consequences of campaign play for the group and interested kibitzers.
It does seem to preclude, for example, an adventure built as a set of web pages with links to character statistics, references to rules, and so on that could be interactively used or reviewed over the web. That strikes me as unfortunate and unnecessary.
As long as you weren't stealing large chunks of WotC material wholesale, I'm pretty sure the above situation is covered just fine under fair use.
__________________ Tales from the Rusty Dragon - A 4th Edition Conversion Blog Covering Paizo's Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path
2. What about sites that include rules other than 4e? What if I use rules for a prior edition, or what if I create True20 conversion rules?
Am I missing something else here?
I'm not well versed enough in lawyerspeak to decipher all the implications of the license, but I get the feeling this was designed with Magic fans first, 4E fans second (some of the things that would concern D&D fans seem to be shuffled off into a "see the GSL" approach) and fans of other/out-of-print material not at all.
I expect continual growth items like room-a-day (not dungeon-a-day) are walking on the wrong side of the GSL. Section 3 stipulates single-download product. Having a single adventure split over multiple pdfs won't qualify.
Why not? Each room in that context is its own "product."
As long as you weren't stealing large chunks of WotC material wholesale, I'm pretty sure the above situation is covered just fine under fair use.
But it still leaves us wondering what WotC's web site policy is unless we're to assume that anything not covered by their license is implicitly against their policy...
I know that any policy they might come up with doesn't prevent me from relying on fair use. But people have been asking for a policy - a statement that makes it clear what WotC would like to encourage and discourage, what may be pursued with a C&D and what may not.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
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