General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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I don't understand how Paizo can release the PDF of their core rulebook for $10 and get universal praise, yet WotC decides to sell their PHB for $5 at Gen Con and some posters immediately think this is a bad sign.
Universal praise?
You missed the threads and blogs about how the $10 Pathfinder pdf will kill LGSs, devalue RPGs, and lead to the end of the gaming industry?
You are probably better off for having skipped the hysteria and teeth gnashing.
This is definitely one scenario. Do most people feel a PH1 with errata will be significantly better than the current PH1?
Honestly, I would not buy one. I'd put that money towards continuing my DDI subscription. Character Builder + Compendium basically means my PHB has been sitting on my shelf unopened for quite some time now. Compendium and Character builder also have all the updates already, so ...
Nevertheless, I think it would be smart to put an errata'd version out for future players in any upcoming printings.
I play 3e/Pathfinder and I would buy a 4e PH for $5. Probably not with another full price book though, and I won't be at Gencon so it is a bit moot for me. I wish they were selling or giving it away in pdf form as a promotion that I could take advantage of.
Regardless, although I am positive Pathfinder will sell out in the very first day of the Convention, I think WotC's strategy here will do a very good job of getting the PHB into the hands of people who don't already play 4e. If Paizo's stock is fairly limited, I'd expect most Paizo sales are going to be to existing fans, and almost certainly many of them will be to people who also have the book pre-ordered. While that's awesome, and while it will make for some great and well-equipped groups, it might not seed the books to new eyeballs and new players quite as well. WotC's strategy, OTOH, is apparently mostly designed to entice the new and curious to check out what 4e has to offer.
I'm guessing the $10 PDf of the core rules will more than succeed at accomplishing this, and the predicted HUGE line at the Paizo booth will probably draw a few new eyeballs in and of itself.
You missed the threads and blogs about how the $10 Pathfinder pdf will kill LGSs, devalue RPGs, and lead to the end of the gaming industry?
You are probably better off for having skipped the hysteria and teeth gnashing.
Yeah, that was a ridiculous argument, and it's really a shame. It's the darker side of fanboyism.
It's understandable to cheerlead for stuff you like and generally look at it in a positive light. It gets ridiculous and unpleasant when people also feel compelled to interpret stuff that isn't their flavor of choice in the most negative light possible. So, we get arguments like how Paizo will kill retailers with cheap PDFs. Or how WotC is failing because of 4e making the Bestseller lists or something. Or how either company intentionally underproduced their books in order to sell them out.
Regardless, although I am positive Pathfinder will sell out in the very first day of the Convention, I think WotC's strategy here will do a very good job of getting the PHB into the hands of people who don't already play 4e. If Paizo's stock is fairly limited, I'd expect most Paizo sales are going to be to existing fans, and almost certainly many of them will be to people who also have the book pre-ordered. While that's awesome, and while it will make for some great and well-equipped groups, it might not seed the books to new eyeballs and new players quite as well. WotC's strategy, OTOH, is apparently mostly designed to entice the new and curious to check out what 4e has to offer.
Anyway, I wish both companies a fantastic Con and wish I could be there.
-O
The only thing I wonder is how many people, that aren't playing 4e now, are going to pay for another book... so they can get the $5 PHB? I don't know, it seems like it's targeted more at those already playing 4e who wouldn't mind grabbing an extra PHB for their group at a $5 price... but as far as new people or people who haven't given 4e a chance yet... I'm missing the incentive for them to buy another book (especially when there are 3 core rulebooks) in order to get the PHB for $5...especially when they can grab the core book set w/gift box for about the same price on amazon.
Anyways, I certainly agree with your last sentiment.
__________________ Nobody built like me, I designed myself ...as an
I'm guessing the $10 PDf of the core rules will more than succeed at accomplishing this, and the predicted HUGE line at the Paizo booth will probably draw a few new eyeballs in and of itself.
Yep, and I hope it does!
My thought was only that there are ways to make a splash, and ways to spread the game to new players who aren't already sold on it. I think Paizo is making a hell of a splash, and will be the figurative belle of the ball - I don't think there's anything else being released this year that's as eagerly-anticipated, and I don't think anyone else will have as wildly successful a convention. Like I said, I expect they will sell out on Day 1, possibly before lunch, unless they decide to hold back some stock for later days. Many of these sales will probably be to people buying several copies, or to people who already have the book ordered - that is, deep market penetration rather than wide market penetration. If stock is relatively limited, this could make a bottleneck for new players. But, it's great for generating interest and enthusiasm.
On the other hand, I think that WotC's strategy is a better one for an established game like 4e - that is, it's working more on selling new games to the unconverted than it is on selling to existing fans. The $5 PHB is a book that most veteran players don't want or need - but it's a good way to get people interested, and a good way for existing fans to seed copies to their friends.
Paizo is going to get the word out. WotC is going to get the game out. Both are great goals for conventions, and I wish them both all the best.
The only thing I wonder is how many people, that aren't playing 4e now, are going to pay for another book... so they can get the $5 PHB?
I guess we'll have to see! I can see it as appealing for a new player - when you're at a convention, you're not really competing with Amazon, by and large. If you can get the entire core set for $75, that's a pretty decent price, overall. Heck; even if you just picked up the DMG + PHB, you're looking at a decent deal.
Also, as I mentioned, it's good to get extra PHBs to existing fans, so they can more or less give those to people who are interested in checking it out.
I guess we'll have to see! I can see it as appealing for a new player - when you're at a convention, you're not really competing with Amazon, by and large. If you can get the entire core set for $75, that's a pretty decent price, overall. Heck; even if you just picked up the DMG + PHB, you're looking at a decent deal.
Also, as I mentioned, it's good to get extra PHBs to existing fans, so they can more or less give those to people who are interested in checking it out.
On the last day of gencon, they could even pull off another stunt such as selling the 4E PHB1 for $5 without the purchase of another D&D rulebook.
I wanted to apologize publicly for my post last night. I was up way too late, and wasn't in the best of moods when I posted, and I definitely should have thought twice before submitting it. I wasn't targeting any other poster in my reply, rather I posted out of frustration with what seems to be an extreme sense of negativity of anything that is done regarding 4e or by Wizards, including but not limited to the three examples I gave. I don't have any personal stake or emotional investment in this regard, and games are a really silly thing to get worked up over and fight about, so I'm not sure why I let things get to me. I apologize to anyone I did offend with my uncharacteristic behavior.
I hope Wizards, Paizo, and every other publisher has a great GenCon, and congratulate both companies on the success of their flagship game lines. Having two successful fantasy games only makes the industry, and gaming, stronger in the long term.
Speaking as someone who'll be working the booth of That Other Company at GenCon, it's clear that WotC fears the release of Geist.
Okay, I'm kidding. In all seriousness, it looks like a shrewd move to me. Seeding the market with more cheap PHBs is a clever thing to do, even if most people who'll buy them at GenCon with the "with any additional purchase" rider are going to be passing them out to friends. That's a neat viral trick.
As for whether it "screws Paizo" or not, I actually doubt this is a move that would prevent people from picking up the Pathfinder hardcover. The buy-in for Pathfinder is $50, which tends to price it a little bit out of "impulse buy." People looking to get Pathfinder at GenCon are likely planning on it already. The cheap PHB with an additional purchase seems much more aimed at the impulse buyer. I would say that Paizo would be hurting from this only if they were relying on undecided gamers and impulse buyers for their sales, but they've done a great job of establishing a guaranteed market for what they're selling.
Thanks to Edition War, plenty of people have been more and more inclined to make up their mind about whether they're "on one side" way before Pathfinder's formal debut. I doubt that this move is going to change anybody's minds; it looks to me less like a move to try and undercut someone else's sales and more a way to encourage people to spread around exposure to 4e. A lot of the truly undecided gamers, or those who think Edition War is silly, might be inclined both to buy Pathfinder and take advantage of WotC's offer. And then swing by our booth for a copy of Geist!
Madness, I know.
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Last edited by Barastrondo; 10th August 2009 at 06:25 PM..
Reason: misplaced only. Hate those!
As an aside, as I'm sure many of you all know, the actual print cost of a hardcover book is not very much. I'm sure they're still making some money off of the $5 books and hoping to draw some new players who might hold out against 4e for whatever reason (no need to bring up edition wars). If they pick up a DMG and can buy the PHB for $5 they might. If it only costs $30 to get in the game, again, more likely to try the waters.
This is just healthy competition between 2 rival companies. In the long run this will reduce prices and improve quality. Nothing to complain about here.
This is just healthy competition between 2 rival companies. In the long run this will reduce prices and improve quality. Nothing to complain about here.
Not only is there nothing to complain about it, this is something to celebrate. In price wars the consumer usually wins!
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