General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Because this is a site devoted to roleplaying games, you can't avoid making a value judgement, a negative one, if you say that something generally held to be an rpg isn't.
So why cant the site expand to coverage of other games if they are gaining in popularity? I'm cool with that and wouldn't object to such games getting coverage. The only thing I see in a negative way is a game that uses RPG as a buzz acronym to generate interest and sales when the play of the game doesn't fit that distinction.
Not really. If the players sit down with the expectation of playing a story based game there is no railroad happening. Everyone knows and expects a very plot driven game. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.
I think there are two ways to play a storytelling game. One is to have the DM tell the story to the passive players, who go along with his plot because they want to hear the story.
The other is to create characters and a setting, throw it into motion and see what shakes out. Once Upon a Time is kind of like this.
I could point to something like Prime Time Adventures as an example of the second type, but I don't think it's a storytelling game (using EW's definition).
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
D&D is billed as the premiere roleplaying game. If that is no longer going to be true, and the brand is changing into a storytelling game then the developers/marketers should just man up and say so.
There's nothing to "man up" to. The definition of RPG they're using is the same as most people use it. You have an idiosycratic definition of RPG, which most people would reject (I suspect), and then you suggest those who don't share your very narrow definition need to "man up" rather than you realizing they're using a different, more common, definition.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
So why cant the site expand to coverage of other games if they are gaining in popularity?
The site already does cover those games. You see an issue because of your very narrow definition of "RPG". To the majority on this site, there is no need to "expand" the coverage as you suggest, because those games already fit within the defnition of "RPG".
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
Having seen this conversation play out multiple times one of the issues I see that rarely gets acknewledged is that the distinction between story games* and roleplaying games is rarely a binary state. Story games grew out of the roleplaying hobby and maintain a number of features of roleplaying games, including identification with an in game avatar for the most part. There are also a number of games that are much closer to the roleplaying end of the spectrum that nonetheless implement minor callobarative storytelling based mechanics. That's all without getting into the ways that pure roleplaying games can be played in a manner that incorporates callaborative storytelling.
*When I speak of story games, I'm mostly referring to games that utilize shared narrative control to resolve conflicts that arise between players - not a certain class of storytelling games which are basically standard roleplaying games with a different set of play assumptions.
There's nothing to "man up" to. The definition of RPG they're using is the same as most people use it. You have an idiosycratic definition of RPG, which most people would reject (I suspect), and then you suggest those who don't share your very narrow definition need to "man up" rather than you realizing they're using a different, more common, definition.
It isn't my fault if gamers see storytelling as a dirty word. It shouldn't be.
The primary goal of a wargame is to fight, thus a wargame.
The primary goal of a roleplaying game is to roleplay, thus a roleplaying game.
The primary goal of a storytelling game is to create/tell stories.
The ultimate goal of all of them is to have fun and all of them can provide that.
As far as a "narrow view" goes, is it shortsighted to expect a wargame to provide combat as the main focus of play? You can roleplay during a wargame but you wouldn't fault the game for not providing support for it.
Likewise, you can roleplay during a storytelling game but the design shouldn't be faulted for not having that as a main focus.
The question I would like answered is why would someone who really enjoys playing storytelling games would hate them being called storytelling games?
*When I speak of story games, I'm mostly referring to games that utilize shared narrative control to resolve conflicts that arise between players - not a certain class of storytelling games which are basically standard roleplaying games with a different set of play assumptions.
In other words, calling The World of Darkness by White Wolf anything other than a traditional RPG simply because the game runs on what's known as "The Storytelling System" would be patently absurd.
In other words, calling The World of Darkness by White Wolf anything other than a traditional RPG simply because the game runs on what's known as "The Storytelling System" would be patently absurd.
Well, we do use some narrative conceits like mechanics that last for the duration of "a scene" and the like. It's a little more than just a name — but you're absolutely right, even with those narrative conceits built into the system, the Storytelling System games and the Storyteller games before them are absolutely traditional RPGs. Have been for over 15 years. There are even Storyteller grognards!
That's why the standard definition of traditional roleplaying is so encompassing. Gaming is a big tradition, much bigger than any one game table's idiosyncratic preferences.
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Ethan Skemp
CCP NA/White Wolf Publishing
It isn't my fault if gamers see storytelling as a dirty word. It shouldn't be.
The primary goal of a wargame is to fight, thus a wargame.
The primary goal of a roleplaying game is to roleplay, thus a roleplaying game.
The primary goal of a storytelling game is to create/tell stories.
The ultimate goal of all of them is to have fun and all of them can provide that.
As far as a "narrow view" goes, is it shortsighted to expect a wargame to provide combat as the main focus of play? You can roleplay during a wargame but you wouldn't fault the game for not providing support for it.
Likewise, you can roleplay during a storytelling game but the design shouldn't be faulted for not having that as a main focus.
The question I would like answered is why would someone who really enjoys playing storytelling games would hate them being called storytelling games?
I use both roleplaying and storytelling in my games, the storytelling is my part and the players roleplay.
Bel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WotC_RichBaker
In related news, I'm afraid I'm going to have to confiscate your 3.5 rulebooks, and force you to convert to the new edition. Where do you live?
The primary goal of a wargame is to fight, thus a wargame.
The primary goal of a roleplaying game is to roleplay, thus a roleplaying game.
The primary goal of a storytelling game is to create/tell stories.
Do not confuse the means with the end.
My primary goal may be roleplaying. I may use oodles of storytelling elements to set up my roleplaying scene. I may also acknowledge that including some storytelling aspects are an aid and support to playing the role - that role-playing in a good story is better than ignoring story while I play the role.
Or, I may use a fight scene as the frame for playing the role - as making tactical decisions is still decision making, and thus roleplay. Either way, I need those other elements to get my roleplay done in an interesting way.
Thus, the "primary goal" does not really tell us what the game contains in practice.
I think you are just a short hop from GNS theory, honestly.
The primary goal of a wargame is to fight, thus a wargame.
The primary goal of a roleplaying game is to roleplay, thus a roleplaying game.
The primary goal of a storytelling game is to create/tell stories.
The problem I have with what you are saying is that you say primary but then don't point out that there are secondaries of each in the others...
Wargaming is mostly the fighting...but people enjoy the rp and story too, just to a lesser extent
Role-playing is mostly about assuming a role, but people enjoy fighting and stories to a lesser extent
Story telling is mostly to create a story, but people like to in those games assume roles and have fights as well (Ok maybe the ifhgt in this one is really low...like less then 1%...but you get the point...
Quote:
D&D is billed as the premiere roleplaying game. If that is no longer going to be true, and the brand is changing into a storytelling game then the developers/marketers should just man up and say so.
no one is saying it isn't going to be a role-laying game (except you)...they are saying that an RPG can have infuences of storytelling games (Heck they were birthed from wargames)...
Infact I think RPGs are at there best when they have a good wargame and a good storytelling game feel mixed in. How much of a mix is diffrent per group.
In my tuesday night games I would say we are 40% rp and 40% storytelling and 20% war gameing on avrage...but when we are doing the orcus adventure path (H1-E3) there is a lot of dungon crawl in it...we play more like 50% wargame 40% RPG 10% storytelling
on my saterday night game we are more like 80% wargame 15% storytellign and 5% rp...heck we very rarely talk 'in character'...how ever that same group (Yes every plyaer adn the DM) play LFR once a month...and we are always in character for that...
The developers/Marketers are trying to show people ways to expand there games...that is not a bad thing...D&D is the premiere roleplaying game...it has it's roots in wargaming, and story games...so it is a healthy mix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
So the general concensus is that anything can be called an RPG.
If a tabletop combat game were produced that included a few pages about giving a name and some traits to your leader figure and was released as an RPG that it would be fine because there is nothing preventing it from being used as an RPG?
you know umbran...I just took half an hour to craft a post that I thought perfectly summerized the issue here...then you ninja'ed me with half the word count and put it better...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
So the general concensus is that anything can be called an RPG.
If a tabletop combat game were produced that included a few pages about giving a name and some traits to your leader figure and was released as an RPG that it would be fine because there is nothing preventing it from being used as an RPG?
Thats a bit broad to be of any use IMHO.
no thsat would be a wargame with some rp infuences...
why must everything be an extreme with you???
what do you call a game with board game, storytelling game, rpg, and wargaming parts that is PRIMARALY about assumeing roles and playing out that one role???
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
My primary goal may be roleplaying. I may use oodles of storytelling elements to set up my roleplaying scene. I may also acknowledge that including some storytelling aspects are an aid and support to playing the role - that role-playing in a good story is better than ignoring story while I play the role.
Or, I may use a fight scene as the frame for playing the role - as making tactical decisions is still decision making, and thus roleplay. Either way, I need those other elements to get my roleplay done in an interesting way.
Thus, the "primary goal" does not really tell us what the game contains in practice.
I think you are just a short hop from GNS theory, honestly.
Never heard much about GNS. My point isn't that anything produced as a roleplaying game can't have much combat or any plot elements lest it cease to be an RPG. If the design objectives of the game are to provide a means to craft stories as a group that doesn't mean that the game can't have combat or players are forbidden to roleplay but the bulk of the material is going to be about story elements then its largely a story game.
I have fun roleplaying my Skaven Grey seer during WHF battle games but I don't consider WHFB to be an RPG.
So the general concensus is that anything can be called an RPG.
No, and that doesn't follow from anyone's argument here that I have seen.
The argument is that your definition of RPG excludes many games that the majority of gamers would consider to be RPGs. Therefore your definition is of little use when used among gamers.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
If EW hasn't conceded anything by page 5, he isn't going to concede it by page 6 or 7 or 10. And no amount of posters piling on his definition is going to change that.
I was hoping for an actual DISCUSSION of the CONTENTS of DMG2's excerpt, but instead we get this.
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