General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
It's an age-old mystery. We still don't really know what causes new editions, where they come from or where they go to die. Scientists have some theories but that's all they are - theories. Sunspot activity, transfats, the MMR vaccine, mobile phone masts. It could be a combination of factors. Some say there are no new editions, that they are just old editions with new covers. Others claim the whole thing is a government conspiracy. Some fringe theorists even speculate that new editions are written by aliens.
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Last edited by Doug McCrae; 19th August 2009 at 05:56 PM..
Money is the biggest reason for new editions of games. New editions not only cause existing gamers to purchase it. They are designed to target newer gamers and cause new gamers to purchase it as well.
No game system as complex as an RPG is so perfect that it cannot be improved upon. You can do so by expanding the rules of the game via supplements. At some point, you may need to consolodate the ever expanding rules into a newer system that streamlines the game and can take it into a new direction that the existing rules cannot.
After a game has been out for years, the players will find holes and shortcomings of the system and complain about it. Game designers can take take advantage of this information to create a newer edition that addresses those issues and give gamers something that an existing edition cannot provide.
I think from a companies standpoint it´s dwindling sales and shiny new toys.
When should it happen?
I for one can say that i applauded the annoncment of 3e, because DMing 2e was a shore with the necessary rules spread out over dozens of supplements. I know i was really giddy at the prospect of a new core with 3 books, with all relevant rules updated and streamlined in a cohesive whole.
That´s dovetail well with my current dislike of 4e: it´s apparently designed to bloat on it´s own books with it "everything is core" philosophy.
So, i think a new edition should come along when the old becomes to convoluted and unwieldy to play
Olli
Normally I would agree with you. Actually I had reached my 3e limit much earlier than my 2e limit...we hardly had any of the 3e class splat books, and I hadn't bought many of the DM supplements. I'd purchased much more 2e stuff, although admittedly that was the college years and I had more throwaway cash.
That said, I've pretty much bought every 4e book out so far, and am looking towards the future releases.
However, I wonder how D&D Insider changes the equation here. First, it allows the easy compilation of all the new crunch that is made available. And in fact, the utility of Insider actually _increases_ as more and more crunch is made available, just as long as the basic framework doesn't change significantly.
In fact, I can see a point 5 years down the line where there is so much stuff in the Insider, when you have a Character Builder that contains all the powers, feats, etc from 5 PHBs and probably over a dozen Power Books...when you have a Monster Builder that contains all the monsters from all the Dungeon, Dragon magazines, 5 Monster Manuals and probably 5-10 Draconomicon style books, plus the other Adventure Tools not yet released, plus hopefully a virtual game table that allows remote gaming...that you actually start making more on Insider subscriptions than the books. But even if you don't, as you add more material to Insider, it does increase the incentive for people to subscribe to it (much like the more people who have fax machines increased the incentive to also have a fax machine).
It could get to the point that a significant change to 5e would be very counter productive...unless 5e was very compatable with 4e...at which point you have to wonder what the point to going to 5e would be in the first place.
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Last edited by hailstop; 19th August 2009 at 06:42 PM..
chess, checkers/draughts, scrabble, monopoly, poker, and many many more games don't require new editions to be enjoyed.
Neither does Dungeons & Dragons and yet...
A new edition is safety in a storm for a new game. Rather than put a new name on the new game, the company assigns the old tried and true IP to the new game and says, "Meet the new apple... No, it's not a pear, it's the new apple. Exactly the same as the old apple, only it tastes even better."
Gaming customers are disserved by this approach because it does not allow for new gaming ideas to sink or swim on their own merits. Rather, the new ideas are bundled up with the name of the old game, and whether they are good or bad in and of themselves becomes intermixed with how the new mechanics handle the purposes of the old game.
If Wizards of the Coast had had the confidence in their new games to call them "Wizards' New FRPG" or whatever, none of these stupid edition wars would ever come up.
So what causes new editions? The desire to sell new products and the fear that the new products won't sell unless you rope in an existing group of customers.
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Is the same reason that the Pathfinder Core Rule Books is Paizo's biggest product yet? Even though they're primary an adventure/campaign setting company?
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Is it because the companies' profits are dwindling, and they need a reboot to get more money?
Yes.
This gives them a chance to try all the other cool stuff you're talking about, but if 3e sales went through the roof in 2006 for some reason, they wouldn't be that concerned about 4e. Edition changes are naturally rather violent, heavily contested topics. You're going to loose some customers. No one ever WANTS to loose customers, so an edition change is not brought on as the first response.
However, an edition change is a pretty sure-fire way to get everyone who's still playing the game to buy at least one book (and probably more often 3 books), and if you're good at it, you do more good than harm, and you come out ahead.
I also tend to think that new rules -- framed in the context of new editions or otherwise -- are pretty good things for the game, as a whole.
The challenge is to be able to update the rules without requiring another contentious edition change until the last possible minute, I think. Unfortunately, since the hobby so far is tied to published books, it is very hard to easily update those rules. 4e's DDI is trying some new stuff, of course, and for me, it seems to work OK.
2) Really cool ideas in game design that may or may not fit within the boundaries of the current edition's design
3) Accretions of errata and revisions that virtually dictate the release of at least a cleaned up version of the rules.
4) Economics
5) Economics
Pretty much.
There's a huge element of "it depends", too.
Some games don't change much, other than the accumulation of "standard" house rules that are made official or similar tweaks. I'm thinking most of the Hero editions, GURPS (from what I've heard), 1e -> 2e, with oWoD Revised and 3e -> 3.5e being arguable but generally in that spirit. For favored games, these often end up coming out about the time enthusiasts have worn through the binding on their originals and are welcome (to varying degrees).
Other games are new systems for an old genre and crib the name. Top Secret, 3e, and 4e all work here. The motivation might be a tired, poorly performing product or a change in ownership/development team. It can be totally well intentioned (as 3e certainly was) or just corporate crap.
Regardless, finances always play a role in decisions made by people making games as their livelihood. Sometimes the economics are second place. Sometimes they're first.
D&D is also in a rather unusual spot when it comes to new editions: it is just so massively huge, and holds enough of the attention of new people that it actually needs to react to the changing needs of its players.
The gaming options of today are not the same as they were 30 years ago. It's exceedingly rare that a game can maintain its market position unchanged. (How Monopoly does it is related to how badly educated the population is with regards to boardgames - although I wouldn't be surprised if over the coming decades, it begins to lose significant market share with the rise of Carcassonne, Settlers of Catan and other modern boardgames).
This is not to say that economics, money and a host of other factors figure into new editions - of course they do!
We must remember that the art of designing RPGs is still pretty much in its infancy. How long has Chess been around? We think of that as a "stable" game, but it most likely didn't look like that when it was first designed...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerricB
We must remember that the art of designing RPGs is still pretty much in its infancy. How long has Chess been around? We think of that as a "stable" game, but it most likely didn't look like that when it was first designed...
Cheers!
And can you just imagine the Chess edition wars of antiquity? I remember the flame wars between old school and new school over the en passant mechanic! Took centuries for the ill will to fade.
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We must remember that the art of designing RPGs is still pretty much in its infancy. How long has Chess been around? We think of that as a "stable" game, but it most likely didn't look like that when it was first designed...
Since we're talking about chess, let's have a wiki link History of Chess
Interesting factoid: the Queen was originally much less powerful and only able to move 1 square diagonally. I bet if there were internet back in those day, ppl would be complaining that changes made to the Queen made it totally OP.
And can you just imagine the Chess edition wars of antiquity? I remember the flame wars between old school and new school over the en passant mechanic! Took centuries for the ill will to fade.
I'd imagine that if some king was pissed off enough at the changes, he'd actually start a real war.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwyrm
Since we're talking about chess, let's have a wiki link History of Chess
Interesting factoid: the Queen was originally much less powerful and only able to move 1 square diagonally. I bet if there were internet back in those day, ppl would be complaining that changes made to the Queen made it totally OP.
Yeah man! The Queens movement is totally Broken!
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
Of course, chess has evolved over centuries, checkers has lots of regional variations (that I had no clue about until I saw a wiki article on checkers), poker has a bazillion forms and the form-of-the-day varies over time (cf., Texas Hold 'Em), and the folks that own Monopoly release new versions all the dang time nowadays (did you want Simpsons Monopoly, or Star Wars, or the soap opera version, or the Euro version, or the cheap version, or the in-an-expensive-wooden box version, or...), and even Scrabble gets new versions, thanks to technology. I can't tell you how many versions of Sorry! I've seen.
We own; 3 battleship, 3 sorry, 5 clue, 6 monopoly, 3 Life and heavens knows what else.
MY 5 yo loves Clue Jr.
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