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I must say that, detailed as they are, and lovable in their own way, the Hârn maps lack flair. There's no fantasy there, no inspiration.
Likewise a satellite image would be a horrible map for a game, in particular fantasy.
A good game map should inspire. The old Glorantha maps are good at that (though the originals are a bit simple these days).
I think that a really good fantasy map should have odd stuff that might or might not be true spread across them ('here there be dragons'), and plenty of space for the DM (and the other players) to fill in their own stuff.
Hârn, and may others, fails on both the inspiring part and on leaving empty space - the world is already fully explored and done. More like a written novel than a RPG.
I also prefer the game maps to at least give the illusion of having been made with existing technology. I don't need to know the exact elevation lines on a world map, it's better to get an impression of how it looks.
[Edit]
I just want to point out that my intention is not at all to bash Hârn. I really like Hârn, and many things about their maps are great - in particular when you look in smaller scale and see the detail put into it looking like a medieval setting and not a mock-modern one! Hârnic villages look like real villages, not like WotC's that look like modern suburbs.
__________________ Henrix
Last edited by Henrix; 30th August 2009 at 12:31 AM..
Hârn, and may others, fails on both the inspiring part and on leaving empty space - the world is already fully explored and done. More like a written novel than a RPG.
There are actually many 'wild' areas on the isle of Harn itself. I'm looking at the map right now and count five largely unexplored areas.
Let me join the Harn Chorus here -- vast amount of detail, large and small scale maps available, lots of blank areas, strange ruins, detailed cities -- I have used those maps for many different campaigns, sometimes in Harn, sometimes not, and under a variety of systems (Harnmaster, D&D, Ars Magica, Over the Edge, etc.)
__________________ Jack, you have debauched my sloth.
Hârn, and may others, fails on both the inspiring part and on leaving empty space - the world is already fully explored and done. More like a written novel than a RPG.
Huh, I don't understand this comment.
True, Columbia Games does have a planetary map for the setting, they have in no way detailed the whole world. Hârn is a modest island off the coast of the super-continent. Almost like the setting's equivalent of Earth's Britain. The smallish island of Hârn is well mapped out, but there are significant portions of the island that aren't detailed. Plus, only small portions of the super-continent have been mapped in equal detail that Hârn has been.
I agree that satellite maps are inappropriate for fantasy maps, but I think cartographers can approach the "look and feel" of satellite maps and not lose the evocativeness of the era, nor approach the cartographic uncanny valley. I dislike the 4e Eberron map for this last reason, as I mentioned above.
I've tried my hand at applying a satellite-photo sensibility to my Greyhawk maps that are hosted at Canonfire! and not get so far towards the ultra-reality end that loses the fantasy-feel. Heck! I still get requests to finish mapping the Flanaess in that style! I'm pleased with the look, though I understand the appeal of the hand-drawn look. The hand drawn method is how I drawn all my other maps today.
__________________
Do you have the patience to teach 4e or WHFRP2 to a longtime gamer?
Are you in a group playing D20 or 3e and need an extra?
Does your group play a campaign using BECMI/Rules Compendium and could use another player?
I would also like to add a vote for the Darlene Greyhawk map (10).
Finally, the 3e Forgotten Realms maps were some of my favorites and deserve a score of 8-10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Anondson
Tangent: If I may offer a point about a trend in maps for settings I think is producing awful results. There are more and more maps that are done with computers that have been adding a 3d aspect to the maps. Unfortunately, the end result has created the uncanny valley of cartography. It tries to look realistic, comes close, but ends up looking far worse than had they just drawn it out with a pen and paper. The 4e Eberron poster map has this uncanny valley cartography. The closer it begins to look like an attempt at satellite/aerial photos, the more we expect things to really look like how a satellite/aerial photo should look.
Please, please, please. Fantasy cartographers of the world, resist the urge to CGI-up your drawings to feel like a satellite (hint: satellite photos of mountain terrain may look like random lumps to you, but they aren't, and your map's mountains shouldn't look like randomized pattern of bumps) if you can't do it right.
[/soapbox]
I agree with this a thousand times over. The 4e Forgotten Realms maps tried to achieve this look and failed. The Eberron map is better, but it suffers from the points you raise. I hate this push for "realism" from some cartographers (or publishers). I much prefer a colorful (or sepia) map filled with suggestive detail. I don't want my fantasy maps to look like Google maps.
As a cartography hopeful myself, I would render a map in this style if a publisher wanted it, but I would rather avoid it if I can.
I agree that satellite maps are inappropriate for fantasy maps, but I think cartographers can approach the "look and feel" of satellite maps and not lose the evocativeness of the era, nor approach the cartographic uncanny valley. I dislike the 4e Eberron map for this last reason, as I mentioned above.
This is a good point. There is a big difference in the Harn maps versus how 4e Eberron is rendered. The Harn maps are softer and more realistic than the Eberron map.
Part of the issue is the technique. Knowing how the Eberron and 4e Forgotten Realms maps were created doesn't really help me appreciate that style.
By the way, I have always appreciated your Flaeness maps. I have used them in a number of campaigns. Top quality and an inspiration.
Last edited by alleynbard; 30th August 2009 at 08:39 PM..
True, Columbia Games does have a planetary map for the setting, they have in no way detailed the whole world. Hârn is a modest island off the coast of the super-continent. Almost like the setting's equivalent of Earth's Britain. The smallish island of Hârn is well mapped out, but there are significant portions of the island that aren't detailed. Plus, only small portions of the super-continent have been mapped in equal detail that Hârn has been.
I agree that satellite maps are inappropriate for fantasy maps, but I think cartographers can approach the "look and feel" of satellite maps and not lose the evocativeness of the era, nor approach the cartographic uncanny valley. I dislike the 4e Eberron map for this last reason, as I mentioned above.
I've tried my hand at applying a satellite-photo sensibility to my Greyhawk maps that are hosted at Canonfire! and not get so far towards the ultra-reality end that loses the fantasy-feel. Heck! I still get requests to finish mapping the Flanaess in that style! I'm pleased with the look, though I understand the appeal of the hand-drawn look. The hand drawn method is how I drawn all my other maps today.
And now I recognize the name! Love those Flanaess maps, and that is the style I'm leaning towards in the maps I'm making. Good work, Eric!
And now I recognize the name! Love those Flanaess maps, and that is the style I'm leaning towards in the maps I'm making. Good work, Eric!
*blush* I appreciate the compliment from someone as accomplished an artist as yourself, Claudio. I love hearing that folks are still using them in their campaigns, as alleynbard has. Makes me feel the immense time consuming effort and research was worth it.
__________________
Do you have the patience to teach 4e or WHFRP2 to a longtime gamer?
Are you in a group playing D20 or 3e and need an extra?
Does your group play a campaign using BECMI/Rules Compendium and could use another player?
I've tried my hand at applying a satellite-photo sensibility to my Greyhawk maps that are hosted at Canonfire! and not get so far towards the ultra-reality end that loses the fantasy-feel. Heck! I still get requests to finish mapping the Flanaess in that style!
This is not a surprise at all: your maps are phenomenal. Anna's maps share a similar realistic view, though her style's different of course.
GH fans the world over would love to see you complete your mapping work, one day!
__________________ grodog
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