Dungeon Editorial: Valley of Chaos?

[MerricB]

If you look at P1: King of the Trollhaunt Warrens, you'll find that several rooms in the warrens - well, at least two - have "Development" sections that means they restock if the party leaves and then comes back. I very much appreciated that touch.

I would have liked a few random encounters in the Warrens as well, to give the impression of monsters moving around the place. I added some of that to my current running of P1.

Cheers!

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by MerricB

I would have liked a few random encounters in the Warrens as well, to give the impression of monsters moving around the place. I added some of that to my current running of P1.

Cheers!

Like that adventure needed MORE combat.

[MerricB]

Originally Posted by Rechan

Like that adventure needed MORE combat.

I know. I'm slowly bending, mutilating and spindling it - well, not that much - to improve the roleplaying aspects of it. My players help. The very first time they came to the Warrens, they bluffed their way past the guards ("We're here to serve your master!") and slew the Troll King in the first encounter.

The last session (see my sig) saw them take on 4 or 5 combats without using a daily! I was impressed.

My love of the basic mythology behind the adventure helps a lot, mind you. I'm really looking forward to when they finally finish the warren section of the adventure and move onwards into the second half!

Cheers!

[mearls]

One of the exciting things about this project is that we can add hooks and connections as we go along. When we first worked up the idea, the potential of finding a weird, jade key in the first cave that opens a door in the tenth cave was one of the interesting parts of it.

That's a fairly simple example, but it can be easily extended to more narrative, interesting bits.

[MerricB]

Originally Posted by mearls

One of the exciting things about this project is that we can add hooks and connections as we go along. When we first worked up the idea, the potential of finding a weird, jade key in the first cave that opens a door in the tenth cave was one of the interesting parts of it.

That's a fairly simple example, but it can be easily extended to more narrative, interesting bits.

Sounds fantastic, Mike!

Will the "Valley of Chaos" be entirely designed by Wizards staff, or will it be an option for other contributors as well?

Cheers!

[mearls]

Originally Posted by MerricB

Sounds fantastic, Mike!

Will the "Valley of Chaos" be entirely designed by Wizards staff, or will it be an option for other contributors as well?

Cheers!

I think it's open to freelancers, but I can't say for sure.

[Mouseferatu]

Originally Posted by mearls

I think it's open to freelancers, but I can't say for sure.

Eeeeeexcellent...

[S'mon]

I think there's a big difference between a linear-series-of-fights adventure, which is often tedious, and a sandbox environment where the PCs can choose where to go, and through intelligence gathering have a lot of control over what and when to fight.

I ordered Dungeon Delve a couple days ago not because I think plotless 3-fights-and-done are inherently interesting, but because I think it should provide useful building blocks for sandboxes of my own creation, perhaps using it in conjunction with hexed sandboxes like Necromaner's Wilderlands of High Fantasy Boxed Set (nominally 3.5, but easily adaptable) and Rob Conley's Points of Light I & II from Goodman.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by Rechan

That this is nothing new? It's something WotC has been doing for 10 years - giving the loosest plot to facilitate combat encounters.

Agreed. Not been a fan of the vast majority of WOTC adventures since the late 2E days-whether they were published modules, published in Dungeon mag by WOTC proper or Piazo(print or electronic), etc. There have been a few exceptions, but not many.

That said, this new "B2" style Caves of Chaos approach is more interesting than the APs* as far as I'm concerned- And they should be easily used/transplanted to any DMs game- unlike an AP.



*not a fan of the AP style design, whether it's Paizo or WOTC- I understand they are popular, but if I had my druthers I'd like to see them go the way of the do-do bird.

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by S'mon

I think there's a big difference between a linear-series-of-fights adventure, which is often tedious, and a sandbox environment where the PCs can choose where to go, and through intelligence gathering have a lot of control over what and when to fight.

Yes but you won't have this, at least not at first. In order to have what you're describing here... choice, a true sandbox environment, etc. is going to take quite a few months of Dungeon before it's viable...until then it's one to 3 encounters in a cave. This is one of the bigger problems I see with trying to do a piecemeal sandbox in monthly installments.

Another is that you run into the same problems as an AP with connectivity, how does one know what is or isn't connected, important, etc. until the caves are published in their entirety. The fact that WotC hasn't satisfied many with their AP in these areas again worries me.

Originally Posted by S'mon

I ordered Dungeon Delve a couple days ago not because I think plotless 3-fights-and-done are inherently interesting, but because I think it should provide useful building blocks for sandboxes of my own creation, perhaps using it in conjunction with hexed sandboxes like Necromaner's Wilderlands of High Fantasy Boxed Set (nominally 3.5, but easily adaptable) and Rob Conley's Points of Light I & II from Goodman.

That's great...but again that's almost all we've gotten in the hardback books and many of the modules. It's not that I feel it's a wrong way to play, I just feel it's all WotC is doing. I mean if necessary hire new writers or take a chance on some fresh blood in Dungeon, but I do think this is going to get real old real fast... without some diversity to mix it up.

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Agreed. Not been a fan of the vast majority of WOTC adventures since the late 2E days-whether they were published modules, published in Dungeon mag by WOTC proper or Piazo(print or electronic), etc. There have been a few exceptions, but not many.

That said, this new "B2" style Caves of Chaos approach is more interesting than the APs* as far as I'm concerned- And they should be easily used/transplanted to any DMs game- unlike an AP.



*not a fan of the AP style design, whether it's Paizo or WOTC- I understand they are popular, but if I had my druthers I'd like to see them go the way of the do-do bird.

I guess I could get more behind this thinking if Scales of War wasn't more similar to a bunch of regular Dungeon adventures...with tenuous ties than one of Paizo's AP's but I see nothing hard in transplanting any of the SoW encounters/adventure sites into a DM's campaign. Maybe some examples of the encounters/areas/etc. you feel couldn't easily be snatched out and used would be helpful.

[S'mon]

Originally Posted by Imaro

That's great...but again that's almost all we've gotten in the hardback books and many of the modules.

I certainly agree it would be nice to see something that's not based on the combat encounters. More high-drama plots and such.

[Imaro]

Just so everyone doesn't think I'm totally negative on the idea...

I would like to see WotC put up specific guidelines to submitting adventures for this. I think with the smaller scope of each installment, this could really be an opportunity for WotC to re-establish the magazine as a place where aspiring new writers can get their start, as opposed to the "in-house & friends" reputation and feel (whether it''s true or not) many fans associate with both Dragon and Dungeon since being taken over by WotC.

[alleynbard]

Originally Posted by Imaro

Eh, in all honesty this seems like clever marketing spin for what WotC has done for most of their 4e adventures anyway... a string of encounters with only the barest of narrative to tie them together and give the PC's a reason to go through them. I mean even many to most of their published modules (outside of Dungeon magazine) have been this way and they've already published a book of dungeon delves. If anything I would say this style of "adventure" is over represented in WotC material.

The funny thing is that on their boards many subscribers are complaining about Dungeon containing too many dungeoncrawls. That on top of the criticisms of the Scales of War not being up to par as a proper AP... Has me really wondering if it's a smart move. I mean creating encounters is so easy in 4e, that it's not the hard part anymore...it's creating a captivating narrative that I find myself looking moreso for inspiration. I also find this a strange move to make right before DMG 2 is released as it seems to focus on going beyond the "string of encounters" mentality. All IMHO of course.

I am pretty much in agreement with you here.

What I hope they do is integrate the necessary material for B2, the keep and the overland map, and provide some great guidelines on how to make the area feel more alive. They could also provide some suggestions on sandbox play and how the story develops in such a situation.

I don't know if they will or not. In the end, I am not playing 4e anymore so I am not sure how concerned I am. I just hope they go all out with this revival and make the classic actually mean something as opposed to just gutting it for encounter areas. There is a ton of potential in B2 and it deserves that kind of attention, whether I give two whits about 4e or not.