General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Dungeon has so far been a waste of money for me. But me being a player in the SoW has nothing to do with that. Doesn't leave me with much reading, since I can't read the SoW adventures, obviously.
Aside from that, it seems fine. I use the CB quite a bit, the Monster Maker enormously and Dragon articles more than I have ever before.
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355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
Personally, I don't think that WotC will ever decouple the individual components of the DDI (integration seems to be the guiding philosophy and besides you'd probably see an option of e-magazines and e-magazines + software anyways), and even if they did separate the magazines, I don't think it would have an appreciable impact on the pricing (even if you don't get the magazines, if you use the CB and MB, you're still benefiting from the content).
__________________ Veronica: Where's your brother?
Dick: I think he took Ghost World up to his room. They're probably up there making love. Or playing Dungeons and Dragons. Or both, at the same time. They're both, like, 12th-level dorks. I'm just sayin'
I think Dungeon has gone backwards since the Paizo days. But I don't care. I think Dragon has some good things and I really don't mind smaller articles and whatnot. But I also don't care.
The two electronic utilities are so good, and the compendium is so useful, that I still think the whole thing is cheap and I am a happy customer.
Sure, I would like the WotC designers to learn that an Adventure Path requires a plot/story/narrative. I would also like the WotC designers to learn than designing an adventure doesn't mean sorting the monsters by level and then choosing by role regardless of whether the monsters are thematically suited to being in an encounter together. But DDi is so cheap and so useful anyway that I just don't care.
As for poor people... let them eat cake!
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The philosopher Herbert Spencer once observed: "The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools."
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Both Dungeon and Dragon are fine for my purposes (or at least they were up until I cancelled my subscription). I don't play 4E, but I still find interesting ideas to mine in Dragon, whether fluff articles or mechanical ideas that I can bend or apply to my games. And I can use any adventure, regardless of system, so Dungeon works for me also.
I only cancelled my subscription after the pdf decision (the final straw for me).
But, if WotC started offering pdf's again, which would probably get me to subscribe again then this is what I'd pay for:
Dungeon and Dragon - they are just fine, IMO, but there's always room for improvement.
Character Builder and Compendium are completely useless to me since I don't play 4E.
But, I would pay for a Character Visualizer, a Dungeon Builder, and a Virtual Game Table - if they ever actually see the light of day.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
It's so cheap I don't care.
Sure, I would like the WotC designers to learn that an Adventure Path requires a plot/story/narrative. I would also like the WotC designers to learn than designing an adventure doesn't mean sorting the monsters by level and then choosing by role regardless of whether the monsters are thematically suited to being in an encounter together.
Amen. That adventure path needs some serious help.
Whatever the differences in quality between new and old Dragon, the new Dragon is more integrated with the core game, both from a promotional standpoint and from a popular acceptance standpoint. This alone makes it more useful. Things like the Star Pact Warlock powers, Son of Mercy, Orc and Kobold monster expansions, and race articles see heavy use in the games I play and run. I don't recall ever using anything from 3.5E Dragon.
I make my own adventures, so Dungeon I've never used. Now their putting the DM type stuff in it, so I might use it more. They're also putting more delves and one-shots in it, which is more along the lines of something I might use on an off week.
The Character Builder is something that at this point I don't think I can exist without. Creating characters the hard way is like spraying myself with bear mace at this point, and I find myself waiting to tinker with things like Divine Power until it becomes integrated with the builder.
My laptop crapped out on me two weeks ago, and I've had to go to work without it. This means I can't use Compendium and Monster Builder to build encounters during the slow times at work(I manage the family business, has its benefits). I'm finding I'm almost as dependent on those as I am on the Builder.
The problem with separating DRAGON from everything else is that it's so integrated as others have mentioned.
How do you set a separate cost for both DRAGON and DUNGEON when all of the crunch that you want is available in the compendium/character builder/monster builder?
That artifact you saw was cool in Dungeon - it's in the compendium.
That new feat that you want to try out from Dragon - it's in the character builder at the end of the month
That updated monster that premiered in a DUNGEON adventure - it's in the monster builder update
(As an aside, any ideas as to what the update for the BETA Monster Builder will contain?)
How does that arguement work then with the hard cover books? All of that content eventually winds up in the DDI so I'm thinking it'd be easy.
Slight difference though. Crunch gets in, not the fluff.
I personally don't find it worth it to pick up things like Divine power and Adventurer's Vault 2 but I did with Open Grave and the Campaign/Player guides.
I guess it depends on what type of material are you actually looking for.
Dragon's been really good these last few months. Lots of good articles with stuff to drop into a campaign, or just good idea-generators (and good idea generators for the freelancer in me).
I haven't used Dungeon as much, but that's more because I don't tend to use pre-generated delves or encounters in my games. I do glance at them to see how the designers are doing it (ties into the freelancer thing--if I know how they do it, it'll be easier to pitch an adventure to them).
As for the other tools, the character builder and the monster builder, I'd pay the sub fee if it was double or even triple what it is now. I am in an active 4e game, so it's getting plenty of use.
If there was one thing I'd want to opt out of if I could would be the insipid Confessions articles in Dragon. No value added at all for me; wasted pages. If I wanted to read a gamer's rambling comments, I can do that here or in any number of online gaming forums or blogs.
I'm looking forward to seeing the gradual shift to shorter, more numerous articles, and I'm looking forward to when they switch over to 5-day content. More articles = more content = more freelancers working on the magazines.
And it really does remind me how poor I am when people consider 70 bucks to be cheap.
To be fair though, even if I did have money, I still wouldn't pay for DDI - in answer as to what I would pay for, I don't consider anything DDI offers to be worth any sort of currency. Dungeon and Dragon are underwhelming, and the idea of paying to access a database of information I (might) already own seems completely absurd to me, almost insulting even.
And it really does remind me how poor I am when people consider 70 bucks to be cheap.
To be fair though, even if I did have money, I still wouldn't pay for DDI - in answer as to what I would pay for, I don't consider anything DDI offers to be worth any sort of currency. Dungeon and Dragon are underwhelming, and the idea of paying to access a database of information I (might) already own seems completely absurd to me, almost insulting even.
CB and MM are not just databases.
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
I love both the magazines. That is worth the price of admission right there.
I almost never use the character builder, and occasionally use the Compendium.
__________________ I'm one of the lucky ones. I married a "gamer-girl."
"Build 'em like a powergamer, but play 'em like a roleplayer." - firesnakearies
I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it once more for luck: the CB and the Compendium are worth the DDI subscription price *alone* for me.
Dragon is "fine" (I read and enjoy most of it), and getting the preview material straight into the CB is an excellent perk. Dungeon started strong but I think has waxed and waned a little lately. You can't argue with the volume of the content (those adventures, especially the adventure path ones, are massive), but I would find it easier to mine smaller adventures than larger ones. Thankfully it looks like they're heading in this direction. The overall quality varies but then, you could always say that about Dungeon through the years.
Like any subscription, you take what you want, and leave the rest. From my POV, the DDI is cheap enough that what I'm leaving (the on-line utilities, about a third of the adventures in Dungeon) hardly puts a dent in my value for money at all.
__________________ "The last time I ran into myself, I kicked my own ass." Chasing the DM, a blog for DM's like me who really feel they should know what they're doing by now.
For DM's: 4E Dungeon Index (adventures, conversions, and sidetreks by level, last updated 16th Oct. through Dungeon #171).
Yeah, it'd be great if I could pay for cable TV a la carte, and just pay for the specific channels that have the programs I watch on it... but that ain't happening. The cable TV / satellite model doesn't work that way.
But I'm not gonna cut off my nose to spite my face by refusing to get cable TV at all... because I really wanna watch those programs I love. So I'll pay the higher price to get the cable package I need to get what I want, even though there's a lot of extra crap I could do without. Because the stuff I want is *more* than worth the price I have to pay to get it.
As far as I'm concerned, the price is well worth it.
I think the contect Dragon has had has been very beneficial for the game. Dungeon, not so much. Paizo was way ahead in terms of design, Adventure Path planning and implementation of the mag when they ran it - WotC will improve, but it will take time.
The CB and MB are awesome and I use both almost every day.
I really do wish that WotC would lessen the "hard sell" they always do when pusing this or that in DDI. Bill's Ampersand column is cool this, awesome that and I'm tired of hearing it. DDI will sell or not sell based on content. Deliver fantastic content and it will sell itself, deliver crap and people will stop buying it. I think very few people are swayed to buy it based on "the pitch".
If WotC can improve their feedback mechanisms for it and honestly listen to the feedback objectively (which is difficult when you envision something and you think its cool and someone else is telling you to do it slightly different) I think they can make great strides!
Ultimately, it comes down to price for me. It seems to be costed correctly and that is why I use it. Up the cost too high and I'm out.
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