4e / GSL Comparing Heroic to Paragon teir play (how does it comparatively "feel"?)

[fba827]

Originally Posted by Jack99

The awesomeness of paragon characters

In that thread Jack99 talks about how he's enjoying paragon tier

Originally Posted by Asmor

The fragility of heroic-tier characters

In that thread Asmor talks about how his games feel weak (yes, I'm over simplifying his thoughts) at heroic tier.


This has been a question on my mind for a while, and after seeing a couple threads on a similar topic, it reminded me to ask.

Basic question: For those of you who took PCs from level 4 (or lower) to at least level 15(give or take), how does paragon tier play compared to heroic tier - either from a DM perspective or a player perspective?


None of my games have gotten to that point yet, so it's really just a curiosity for if/when that time comes.

Does it just feel like more of the same that happened at lower levels but just bigger numbers?
Does condition tracking get unwieldy?
Does it just feel so good to feel "above" any of those heoric teir mooks that gave you a hard time earlier in the campaign?
For those who have strong story-focused or pc-focused games, are you able to naturally extend the story or does it start to feel forced after stretching it that far?
Are there PC abilities that open up at that range that need to be watched (i.e. flight powers, or a lot of ritual use to negate pretty much most plot mysteries?)

So this is general "feeling" and satisfaction, but any weird PC capabilities that might bear a watch are also welcome.


Admittedly, I actually like heroic tier. PCs can do a lot and yet everything seems manageable. Without paragon tier experience, I can't compare it as of yet. Obviously, this is entirely based on personal opinions and experiences. So my own experience (if and when it happens) could be entirely different.


So, what is paragon level play like when compared to heroic level play?

[thecasualoblivion]

The biggest difference isn't the PCs, its the monsters. Paragon monsters do much crazier stuff than Heroic monsters, and its not so much what you do but what you survive and overcome that defines Paragon tier.

PCs get more control, more resilience, and more dirty tricks. Its a subtle thing.

[Dice4Hire]

Honestly, I see little difference, except the things you can ignore/fear a lot less at Paragon such as necrotic, pits, etc.

Gameplay and combats are nmuch the same, though you do have more options and choosing which daily magic item abilities to use is harder, but overall, I see very very little difference.

To explain a bit more, at heroiuc, resistances are not that necessary. Nice, but at paragon, you gotta get soeme or get spanked a lot. Necrotic is number one, but psychic, and whatever the underlying energy type in that area is is even nicer. You absolutely need Mass Resistance somehow in Paragon, especially in those themed encounters in WOTC's adventuere path.

As for monster tricks, yes, they are better in paragon, but also mroe annoying at times, rather than really challenging

[gribble]

Originally Posted by fba827

Does it just feel like more of the same that happened at lower levels but just bigger numbers?

Up until about level 15, I'd say this was primarily my experience (as a player). Things were mostly the same, just with bigger numbers.

Originally Posted by fba827

Does condition tracking get unwieldy?

Again, it wasn't really until late paragon to early epic levels that we started finding condition tracking really becomes a bit unwieldy.

Originally Posted by fba827

Does it just feel so good to feel "above" any of those heoric teir mooks that gave you a hard time earlier in the campaign?

Not really. My experience was that we were always moving on to bigger and better opponents. Whenever we encountered a monster we had encountered before, it was now a level appropriate version (for our current level), so fighting it was much the same experience as in lower levels.

Originally Posted by fba827

Are there PC abilities that open up at that range that need to be watched (i.e. flight powers, or a lot of ritual use to negate pretty much most plot mysteries?)

Definitely. Things seemed mostly ok, up until about level 15. It could be co-incidence that this is about the level that really game breaking powers start becoming evident (bigby's grasping hands, I'm looking at you, and at later levels evards black tentacles; also our permi-invisible rogue is fairly abusive). We've found that since about high paragon, most combats we inevitably will win, it's just a bit of a slog to get through all the hps. A lot could be to do with the adventures. Up until the last few sessions, we had been playing through the WotC adevntures (P2 & P3), but since the beginning of Epic we've been playing something homebrew, and the fights have felt a lot more enjoyable (by and large - although Tuesdays slog against a death knight and his dread spectre allies was a real long boring affair that we never even looked like losing...)

Originally Posted by fba827

So, what is paragon level play like when compared to heroic level play?

My experience? More of the same but with higher numbers. Once past about lvl 15, things become a lot more "save or die", except that in reality it's more "if you hit, those opponents are out of the fight, but you'll have to slog through several rounds to actually get rid of all their hps".

[Jack99]

I think there are several differences between heroic and paragon play.

*Paragon characters are much more durable and can in general go on for longer.
*Paragon characters have many more tricks up their sleeves. They will surprise you at times.
*Rituals really begin to become interesting, and they can by now gather a lot of intel without moving around. And a lot of other stuff too.

This is from a player point of view I guess. For a DM, the main difference is that the monsters get more hitpoints and nastier powers (save -twice- or die) are introduced.

But it my campaign, the biggest difference has definitely been the tone of the campaign. Now, I can't say it will work for other people, but for us (we evaluate a lot) it has been the nr1 thing that differentiated the paragon from the heroic tier.

As an example, there is a recap of my campaign in bullet points below:
Heroic tier

• Discover the ring of slavers operating out of their home town
• Infiltrate one of their HQ's and by accident release something from the Shadowfell
• Make new alliances for their hometown
• Kill some witches in a swamp and watch a church disappear along with a friend (?) into the Feywild
• Follow the paper trail and discover the gnolls running the slave operation
• Get captured and sold as slaves
• Win their freedom by winning an arena competition
• Destroy most of the gnoll slavers and their demon allies
• Enter the feywild in search of a friend - or is it a foe?
• Stumble over a troll invasion in the Feywild

Paragon Tier

• Lead the defense of the eladrin town against the troll armies
• Infiltrate the troll-home and afterwards the Feydark and kill (3 times!) the troll-king and liberate their friend.
• Be hailed as heroes of the Feywild and their hometown (which is where the troll army was heading afterwards)
• Become nobles
• Learn that the aspect of Yeenoghu (which was what was released from the Shadowfell early on in the campaign) is assembling a horde of gnolls and demons and intend to head their way.
• Return to the mortal world and take charge of their town (and fiefdom) as new noble of the realms.
• Create visionary tax-breaks for the common man in order to attrack more business to their town.
• Start building a church for Kord in said town.
• Stop the magical plague that is killing their towns-men by travelling to an ancient primordial temple and taking the ritual from the dead hands of a lich and then killing the dracolich that is spreading the magical plague.
• Track down the assassins who killed the high priest of Kord
• Participate in the decision making process of choosing a new high priest of Kord, all while foiling a demon attack on their own manor, the goal being to secure one of the few portal areas near the home town.
• Get trapped in a timeloop (1500 years back in time) in a battle between far realm's warped creatures led by a mad beholder and the dragonborn Tiamat-worshipers. Ends when the heroes kill the aspect of Tiamat
• Prepare and run the war preparations.
• Strike a deal with Bane and with the Eladrin of the Feywild for support in the coming war.
• Lead 30.000 men against 50.000 gnolls and demons in the Battles of Devil's Pass and winning the war.
• Be even bigger heroes
• Discover that the gods are not the real gods and that their fate is to kill the usurper gods - at least according to Bane and Asmodeus.
• Head to Sigil to find a 3000 year old vampire - and strike a deal with him
• Find a dungeon located under 2 miles of water, enter the dungeon and kill the demilich, thus acquiring one half of the ritual that will allow the heroes to enter the memories and mind of Kord.

I hope that the feel in tone and style is apparent. The players feel their influence on the world. They basically feel like VIP's now, which they certainly didn't at lower levels. I am gonna throw in a soccer analogy, even though I am guessing most people might not get it

Heroic tier is like Premier League - lots of interesting things happen, but in the end, nothing *that* important. Paragon tier is like Champions League, lots of interesting and very important matches that will shape the face of football for a while. Epic tier is more like the world cup final, every single day. You are just that important and what you do will affect millions of people.

[Mentat55]

One of the things that jumps out at me in paragon play is action points. In the heroic tier, action points buy you an extra action (parties with tactical warlords notwithstanding). In paragon tier, all of the PPs have abilities tied to action points, and suddenly things get a lot more explodey. I was thinking our party's war chanter using her action point, granting allies a +5 bonus to attack and damage, then the pit fighter using his action point and doing extra damage on the attack, and the stormwarden (who was slowed) using an action point and teleporting into close combat, and then unleashing Attacks on the Run...

Basically, a lot more synergy between powers and characters. It is really quite remarkable.

[MerricB]

Originally Posted by Mentat55

One of the things that jumps out at me in paragon play is action points. In the heroic tier, action points buy you an extra action (parties with tactical warlords notwithstanding). In paragon tier, all of the PPs have abilities tied to action points, and suddenly things get a lot more explodey. I was thinking our party's war chanter using her action point, granting allies a +5 bonus to attack and damage, then the pit fighter using his action point and doing extra damage on the attack, and the stormwarden (who was slowed) using an action point and teleporting into close combat, and then unleashing Attacks on the Run...

Basically, a lot more synergy between powers and characters. It is really quite remarkable.

This.

We're only a little way into Paragon tier - about 6 sessions of P1 - and the sudden jump in effectiveness due to Action Point effects due to Paragon Paths is very noticeable. Our games have been tremendous fun as a result.

Cheers!

[Rechan]

We've found that since about high paragon, most combats we inevitably will win, it's just a bit of a slog to get through all the hps.

I find that really interesting. Since several people report having this problem early, like in 1st-3rd level. You guys didn't start hitting grind until level 15?

[Stalker0]

My players mentioned that they feel they finally have enough "to do" at paragon.

Before paragon, everyone noted that they would blow through their encounter powers and then it was at wills for the rest of the fight. We now see fights where people don't get to use all of their encounter powers...which means they have to be more strategic in their selection.

I also think paragon opens up certain options that wasn't as possible at heroic. For example, reach weapons can become a lot more useful with that paragon feat that I can't think of the name right now.

[AllisterH]

At around mid to high paragon, everyone in my campaign can fly at least for an encounter.

Rituals see massive use since now they're cheap (thank you WOTC for the time restriction otherwise they would be as abusive as the old pre 4e spells).

Everyone has more stuff and you never use at-wills.

Combat is actually quicker now since everyone knows their abilities AND knows everyone's ELSE's ability and thus can team attack very effectively.

[mshea]

As a DM I notice a number of changes going from heroic to paragon. Note, my players went from level 1 to level 17 and are on their way to the epic tier before the end of the year. Here's what I've seen:

- It's a lot harder for me to really threaten the party at paragon. They have so many ways to avoid, mitigate, resist, gain temp hitpoints, or heal themselves that pushing them down is much more of a challenge for me.

- I'm not noticing the big difference in monsters between heroic and paragon but I'm noticing huge differences in the PCs. Paragon paths add a lot of power to the PCs. In particular, Hospitaler's Blessing (if not nerfed) lets a paladin heal a ton of PCs for free when fighting solos or area blasters. The rogue's daggermaster PP gives him or her a crit on 18, 19, or 20 which greatly increases the rogue's damage. Clerics can get a burst 8 radiant attack that stuns demons and undead on top of turn undead which lets them control a room full of undead for two rounds including wiping out all of the minions that might be in the way. Rangers get a free action point when they kill something (which is nearly always) so once per encounter they can have one to two action points to use which means even more damage. Fighters can get glaive master which gives them tons of ways to hit people coming into them.

Overall, I'm seeing a huge power jump with paragon paths and I'm worried about how these mix with epic destinies.

- Minions are hardly ever worth the experience budget. Frankly, I've given up counting them. If I add minions to a fight, I throw eight or twelve in and count them as four for the exp budget. With all of the huge area blasts and all of the free damage done by our fighter, they totally destroy minions unless I'm really crafty. I have to bring them out in waves or they all die within a round.

- PCs aren't enjoying paragon monster abilities as much. There's a lot of weakens, dazes, stuns, and surge losses. They preferred the heroic-tier stuff like shifting as a minor or shifting when missed. It seemed heroic monster abilities were more interesting than paragon ones.

- Solos are even more easily controlled with stacked dazes and stuns. Undead solos, for example, can be chain stunned by a single cleric for usually two to three rounds with the right abilities. Solos NEED to have extra monsters with them to challenge a paragon party and the environment better do something exciting too. A paragon party will very easily carve through an equally leveled solo creature without breaking a sweat. This wasn't really true at the heroic tier.

- PCs always have tricks up their sleeves with items. Unlike heroic, paragon PCs have a huge variety of magic items to use and use often. This can complicate the game a bit since each of these items is a new option for a player and it means, as a DM, that it is a lot harder to know what a player is going to do.

So that's generally what I've been seeing in the paragon tier. One caveat, my group are very strategy / powergamer types so they've optimized a lot and are very smart when they fight (generally, our fighter likes to rush to the other side of any room they enter). We also have usually six PCs and sometimes seven which makes it very hard to challenge them.

Overall, I'm really enjoying paragon, but I find it very hard to keep the threat high for what should be very challenging fights.

[Jack99]

@mshea

You should consider tweaking your solos a bit.

Sleeping a solo causes it to be stunned. Stunning a solo causes it to be dazed. Dazing a solo causes it to lose one attack (since most solos have multiple attacks).

It does make them less of a pushover. IMO&IME of course.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Stalker0

My players mentioned that they feel they finally have enough "to do" at paragon.

Before paragon, everyone noted that they would blow through their encounter powers and then it was at wills for the rest of the fight. We now see fights where people don't get to use all of their encounter powers...which means they have to be more strategic in their selection.

I also think paragon opens up certain options that wasn't as possible at heroic. For example, reach weapons can become a lot more useful with that paragon feat that I can't think of the name right now.

Yes, that is indeed a notable experience. It might start before Paragon and depent a little on the charaters or classes in question. The "worst" offender might be any Leader focusing a lot on healing (Clerics and Inspiring Warlords?). You really have a lot of powers that offer healing or saving throws - and you don't want to blow them just because they also provide an extra dice of damage if there isn't really someone to benefit from the effect.

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by mshea

I have to bring them out in waves or they all die within a round.

Waves of attackers are almost always a good idea IMHO.

Originally Posted by mshea

Solos NEED to have extra monsters with them to challenge a paragon party and the environment better do something exciting too.

I've always found a single Solo to be on the dull side. Solo + waves of minions = somewhat interesting. Solo + skill challenge trap = somewhat interesting.

Originally Posted by mshea

(generally, our fighter likes to rush to the other side of any room they enter)

I hope he finds a pit trap there at least once.

Cheers, -- N

[Cadfan]

Mechanically I have noticed a major increase in the synergies, effectiveness, and general dynamism of the characters. They simply have more tools available to them, and can carry out more complex and effective strategies.

Stylistically, it hasn't been a major shift, but that's probably my fault as the DM.

[gribble]

Originally Posted by Rechan

I find that really interesting. Since several people report having this problem early, like in 1st-3rd level. You guys didn't start hitting grind until level 15?

Well, now that I think about it, yes. Sure there was the occasional grindy fight earlier than mid-15th, but it has been really noticeable since about 15th level.
I think I put it down to 2 things:

1. The PCs are a lot harder (as in almost impossible) to kill through HP attrition. So at lower levels the grindy fights were still exciting, because there was a possbility we could lose. From around 15 level we started noticing that we were going to win, we just had to get through a lot of HPs first.
2. The adventures we were playing - namely P2 & P3. P3 especially has a lot of opponents with high HP plus insubstantial and/or regen. I absolutely loathe 4e insubstantial.... it's an incredibly boring ability that does nothing but prolong the fight.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by gribble

1. The adventures we were playing - namely P2 & P3. P3 especially has a lot of opponents with high HP plus insubstantial and/or regen. I absolutely loathe 4e insubstantial.... it's an incredibly boring ability that does nothing but prolong the fight.

I'll disagree slightly here.

We just had a battle with Fell Taints, which all have insubstantial. The ONLY thing that saved our bacon is that they have vulnerability to Psychic damage - and our two casters have at-wills that do psychic, as well as the environment helped us a little.

Otherwise, because they got a surprise round on us, they'd likely have killed someone. The insubstantial just made them hard as hell to kill, and meanwhile they were chewing through us.

It didn't feel boring so much as scary, purely because we were in real deep early on.

Compare that to the next fight, where our fighter was weakened four rounds in a row - THAT was more annoying than anything.

[gribble]

Originally Posted by Rechan

Compare that to the next fight, where our fighter was weakened four rounds in a row - THAT was more annoying than anything.

That was another thing - a lot of insubstantial creatures that we faced also had the ability to weaken opponents. The only thing worse than an insubstantial opponent is a weakened PC fighting an insubstantial opponent - 1/4 damage!

To echo what someone else said - the dazed and stunned conditions are also annoying as a PC. It sucks to totally miss a turn (which is what stunned essentially does).

[Rechan]

Sly Flourish has some tips on running Paragon.