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Its stupid of them to not offer PDF's of their old books, especially for those of us who already own print versions.
See, a key, and absolutely essential part, to copyright violation is to prove financial harm was done. So for those of us who already own print copies, and want digital PDF copies, well, since WOTC is no longer offering PDF's for sale, DLing digital PDF's of the books we already own no longer will cause WOTC any financial harm since they no longer offer their own PDF's for sale.
So for those of us who own the print versions, this a a great "grace period" in which we can DL copies for ourselves.
*As always, consult a lawyer specializing in copyright law before acting on the comments of any online idiot*
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Hey, I've got a compromise. How about I give WotC $4 and they give me a PDF of some old A&D product? Win-win.
Of course it costs money to distribute PDFs. It's just not very much. Look at RPGNow and you can see dozens of publishers with products with much smaller sales than, say, the original Dark Sun set probably generates.
Well, they have a bad politics scheme, it's clear that they mess up when they launch 4th, as they believed they were the only powerful force on the market, im sure now they realize that they were wrong...
But that wasn't the fear. They feared piracy of their PDFs. Any suggestion would have to address that fear.
While that is technically true, they only feared "piracy" of PDFs *because* of the spectre of lost of legitimate sales, either hardcopy or PDF. Loss of revenue was, is, and always will be the concern.
After 60 days, everything is long available in pirated PDF form anyway. Those willing to fileshare can and will. Having legally available PDFs wouldn't increase filesharing availability one jot. Zero incremental revenue loss.
Therefore, the only possible remaining concern is that legal PDF sales will cannibailize hardcopy sales. Since the vast majority of hardcopy sales occur in the first 30 days, the "waiting period" should indeed address this concern.
Look, I didn't start this thread to re-ignite the old debates. I honestly hoped to catch the attention of someone at WotC. It isn't too late to fix it, if only egos can be put aside.
Unfortunately, I don't think WotC is looking to compromise or come up with a solution - I think they've already done that and consider this a closed matter.
PDFs are all about the search function. Want to find something really fast? Control + F and you're there. I'm just not willing to give that up. I haven't purchased any hardback copies of DnD material and I doubt I ever will, its just not convenient. I would absolutely love, if they could come up with a separate program like the character builder or the monster builder, that could give us at least some form of computerized manuals. I need some kind of solution, DDI works great for handling monsters and characters, but the Dungeon Master's Guide and other sources are needed to, I feel like WoTC is almost pushing me towards torrents and other sources for material. Seriously I want to pay them money for their products; however, I want digital materials hard copy stuff is just outdated and not worth the many hassles that come with it to me.
But that wasn't the fear. They feared piracy of their PDFs. Any suggestion would have to address that fear.
I doubt anything short of locking them in a room with Eric Flint for a week will do that. Probably not even that.
Not to mention it'd be cruel to Mr Flint.
__________________ We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
Never confuse movement with action. - Ernest Hemingway
If I was to put in a wager on what they will do I would bet on one of the little round orbs in the Adventure Tools being a ‘book button’ that will display the books in a proprietary format. And if it is not in the Adventure Tools proper I would wager it will be in a 3rd application that they can control from the install up.
If they actually ever do start releasing in .pdf files again I will be shocked.
Its stupid of them to not offer PDF's of their old books, especially for those of us who already own print versions.
See, a key, and absolutely essential part, to copyright violation is to prove financial harm was done. So for those of us who already own print copies, and want digital PDF copies, well, since WOTC is no longer offering PDF's for sale, DLing digital PDF's of the books we already own no longer will cause WOTC any financial harm since they no longer offer their own PDF's for sale.
So for those of us who own the print versions, this a a great "grace period" in which we can DL copies for ourselves.
*As always, consult a lawyer specializing in copyright law before acting on the comments of any online idiot*
XP for you! Take a "funny, but true" point, if you like.
While that is technically true, they only feared "piracy" of PDFs *because* of the spectre of lost of legitimate sales, either hardcopy or PDF. Loss of revenue was, is, and always will be the concern.
There are more ways to lose revenue than to lose sales. I think Wizards has determined that their best strategy for the foreseeable future is to dominate the experience of the consumer by increasing their reliance on subscription items, producing products in a way a small press would be hard to match, and snubbing 3pp developers only to let them into the tent later after they have made their sales and then benefitting from the free development. Online tools will include third party stuff at some point, if it doesn't sink; businesses love special relationships. If WotC allowed Brand X to support their campaign setting with the character builder, Brand X beats the snot out of their competitors, while Wizards watches Brand X whittle third party competition almost to nothing. Then later, Wizards decides not to renew Brand X unless Brand X concedes to some new terms Wizards would prefer.
Changing the game would require publishers coming together and creating a consortium able to deal with Wizards on more even terms. Such a consortium would certainly benefit from development of a third party character builder. If you can't fight the software, you can't fight Wizards.
I believe the compromise has already occurred. WotC agrees to stop selling the .pdf files, while we, the consumers, agree to deal with it.
I don't personally care about the newer stuff, but I'd still like to see the oop editions available again. Unless they were somehow losing money on the deal (something I strongly doubt), I can't see how pulling the oop books could have been worth the PR hit.
Even if it's just with the tiny little section of grubby old grognards like me. Instead of holding that last branch out to allow us to still be your customer, you're confirming everything we've ever said about WotC and convincing just few more people out there that we were right.
__________________ <exasperated DM> "Underlying what? ... motivation? Do you want to play Dungeons & Dragons or not?"
<drama obsessed player> "How can I narrate my character's co-mingled sense of alienation and ennui towards modern society in this second-rate dungeon hack? My character returns to the surface and uses his remaining gold to start up an organic coffee shop that caters to left-wing revolutionaries... and hot elvish chicks."
Its stupid of them to not offer PDF's of their old books, especially for those of us who already own print versions.
See, a key, and absolutely essential part, to copyright violation is to prove financial harm was done. So for those of us who already own print copies, and want digital PDF copies, well, since WOTC is no longer offering PDF's for sale, DLing digital PDF's of the books we already own no longer will cause WOTC any financial harm since they no longer offer their own PDF's for sale.
Your legal analysis is seriously flawed, and you should not offer legal advice unless you are an attorney or are CERTAIN you are correct. In this case, you are very wrong, and offering advice that, if followed by someone who does not know better, could result in serious lawsuits against people.
Financial harm is not only computed based on "Are you selling this product right now". I'll give you one example. Disney routinely holds back a large portion of their IP every year, for example, and then re-releases it in future years at an increased value due to the rarity. If your analysis were correct, one could just pirate Disney films not currently in release without repercussions. I do not suggest you try that, however, since Disney would almost certainly sue you and win.
And, more importantly, in the US (and many other countries) Statutory Damages are available for copyright violation. Yes, that means damages without proving ANY financial harm - just damages for you violating someone's copyrighted wsork. The basic level of damages is between $750 and $30,000 per work, at the discretion of the court. There is explicitly no financial harm element of said damages (that's in fact the purpose of Statutory Damages).
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So for those of us who own the print versions, this a a great "grace period" in which we can DL copies for ourselves.
*As always, consult a lawyer specializing in copyright law before acting on the comments of any online idiot*
Hey, I've got a compromise. How about I give WotC $4 and they give me a PDF of some old A&D product? Win-win.
Of course it costs money to distribute PDFs. It's just not very much. Look at RPGNow and you can see dozens of publishers with products with much smaller sales than, say, the original Dark Sun set probably generates.
The costs to sell goods for a larger public company like a Hasbro division are substantially more than the costs for a one man operation working out of his house.
Your legal analysis is seriously flawed, and you should not offer legal advice unless you are an attorney or are CERTAIN you are correct. In this case, you are very wrong, and offering advice that, if followed by someone who does not know better, could result in serious lawsuits against people.
Financial harm is not only computed based on "Are you selling this product right now". I'll give you one example. Disney routinely holds back a large portion of their IP every year, for example, and then re-releases it in future years at an increased value due to the rarity. If your analysis were correct, one could just pirate Disney films not currently in release without repercussions. I do not suggest you try that, however, since Disney would almost certainly sue you and win.
And, more importantly, in the US (and many other countries) Statutory Damages are available for copyright violation. Yes, that means damages without proving ANY financial harm - just damages for you violating someone's copyrighted wsork. The basic level of damages is between $750 and $30,000 per work, at the discretion of the court. There is explicitly no financial harm element of said damages (that's in fact the purpose of Statutory Damages).
Yes, you said it.
Actually, I am not very wrong, but like I said, consult a copyright lawyer before you listen to on line idiots.
There is a world of differences between copyright law and how it applies to an individual in a house using it for himself, versus anyone distributing and selling the material, or trying to pass it off as their own work, etc...
Notice, for example, that everyone taken to court DISTRIBUTED copies to get in trouble.
Plus others things to consider, I suggested doing it ONLY if you already own a print copy, and just DL a pirate copy as your way of giving yourself a digital copy, which you ARE allowed to have, by law, rather than scanning it in yourself, ESPECIALLY since WOTC is not offering a fee based service to provide you with a digital copy, IE PDF's for sale.
So I agree, do not listen to me, consult a lawyer (who knows copyright laws in particular), but the laws are very specific in who can get in trouble and who cannot, and it has to involve public distribution and damages do indeed have to be provable. The copyright owner can choose which method of recompense to go after, based on what evidence they do have to offer as proof. The weaker the proof, the lesser amounts you can go after. The better the proof the higher the penalties become.
If you fail to prove damages, at any level, your case is dismissed.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Actually, I am not very wrong, but like I said, consult a copyright lawyer before you listen to on line idiots.
I am a copyright lawyer. You are very wrong. Let's leave it at that.
Please, nobody follow Treebores "steal it cause they are not selling it" advice.
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Plus others things to consider, I suggested doing it ONLY if you already own a print copy, and just DL a pirate copy as your way of giving yourself a digital copy, which you ARE allowed to have, by law, rather than scanning it in yourself, ESPECIALLY since WOTC is not offering a fee based service to provide you with a digital copy, IE PDF's for sale.
No, you are NOT entitled to have a pirated PDF copy of a book you own.
Again, please, nobody listen to this person on this piece of advice.
Quote:
So I agree, do not listen to me, consult a lawyer (who knows copyright laws in particular), but the laws are very specific in who can get in trouble and who cannot, and it has to involve public distribution and damages do indeed have to be provable.
No, it is not specific to distribution, and no, it does not have to involve damages, and I just cited for you the statutory damages issue.
Quote:
If you fail to prove damages, at any level, your case is dismissed.
No, that is not correct. Again, the entire purpose of statutory damages was for cases when you cannot prove damages, just infringement.
Seriously Treebore, you do not know what you are talking about.
I am a copyright lawyer. You are very wrong. Let's leave it at that.
Please, nobody follow Treebores "steal it cause they are not selling it" advice.
No, you are NOT entitled to have a pirated PDF copy of a book you own.
Again, please, nobody listen to this person on this piece of advice.
No, it is not specific to distribution, and no, it does not have to involve damages, and I just cited for you the statutory damages issue.
No, that is not correct. Again, the entire purpose of statutory damages was for cases when you cannot prove damages, just infringement.
Seriously Treebore, you do not know what you are talking about.
Fine, I don't want anyone to listen to me, I want people to go to copyright lawyers, like I did. Sounds to me like they will want to go to one who is in Texas and considered to be a leading "legal mind" on US copyright law, though.
Lawyers are like Doctors, there are those who know their job, then there are those who kill an average of 88,000 patients per year due to medical incompetence.
So you definitely want to get a good lawyer, or you may get "killed" in court.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Fine, I don't want anyone to listen to me, I want people to go to copyright lawyers, like I did. Sounds to me like they will want to go to one who is in Texas and considered to be a leading "legal mind" on US copyright law, though.
Lawyers are like Doctors, there are those who know their job, then there are those who kill an average of 88,000 patients per year due to medical incompetence.
So you definitely want to get a good lawyer, or you may get "killed" in court.
I am a good lawyer. One of my focuses is copyright law. I represent some RPG publishers and comic book publishers. I am published in the field. I know what I am talking about. You are wrong.
By the way, Texas is not known for copyright attorneys. Copyright focuses on the entertainment industry for the most part, and that is primarily found in Los Angeles and New York. But that is neither here nor there. I am sure there are many fine copyright lawyers in Texas, I just have never heard it referred to as a leading location for copyright law.
The costs to sell goods for a larger public company like a Hasbro division are substantially more than the costs for a one man operation working out of his house.
When the PDFs for the back catalog were up on RPGNow and Drivethrurpg and paizo, etc, the only costs WotC had was having someone in accounts receivable cash the check that was sent to them every month. Someone else in accounting probably entered these checks into their accounting system. These two people presumably are involved with cashing checks on a daily basis and so the "cost" for these employees to handle 3-4 more checks a month (I know a huge rise in volume) is negligible. So please stop saying "there are costs for a large company to sell stuff" when all the upfront costs to this (licensing contracts stuff) were already paid for years ago and all they had to do was cash their checks each month.
Returning the back catalog (2e and older stuff) to RPGNow/drivethrurpg would probably take a phone call from Scott, the exchange of a couple faxes (to sign the publisher release forms that have no changed since the catalog was taken down), and picking a go live date.
The only reason not to do this is they don't want the material available. Period.
__________________ Joe Mucchiello, Head Honcho at Throwing Dice Games
Priority One: Fatherhood.
Priority Two: Sanity.
Down on the list: seemingly real close to releasing a notebook essential. It's in layout! Has been for months now. (Just nod politely so I won't cry about this.)
"I've never heard of the term Flavor lawyer..." -- Scribble
By the way, Texas is not known for copyright attorneys.
No, Texas is better known for it's wacky patent enforcement. And like all good IP discussions on the Internet, confusing copyright, patents and trademarks is all a part of rules of engagement. Disclaimer: IANAL.
__________________ Joe Mucchiello, Head Honcho at Throwing Dice Games
Priority One: Fatherhood.
Priority Two: Sanity.
Down on the list: seemingly real close to releasing a notebook essential. It's in layout! Has been for months now. (Just nod politely so I won't cry about this.)
"I've never heard of the term Flavor lawyer..." -- Scribble
There is a world of differences between copyright law and how it applies to an individual in a house using it for himself, versus anyone distributing and selling the material, or trying to pass it off as their own work, etc...
Hm. No. The law is the law.
Do not confuse, "There is a world of difference in how the law applies to an individual doing X and one doing Y," and, "There is a world of difference in how the law is applied to an individual doing X and one doing Y". Your advice amounts to, "Your practical risk is low, so don't worry about it." But it is still a violation.
EN World does not condone copyright violation on any level. Our hobby as a whole, and many of our members individually, depend on the income IP brings in. If someone rights to the content, you do them a disservice if you copy it without permission.
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