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It seems obvious we aren't going to get the perfect solution for everyone. It also seems obvious that the current situation is untenable, especially for a company that is rapidly becoming all about digital delivery. We need a compromise.
I suggest:
1. Release the PDF 60-90 days after hardback.
2. Charge 50% of hardback cover price.
Since the vast, vast majority of hardcopy sales happen *way* before 60 to 90 days, the waiting period should address the fear that the PDF and hardback would compete with one another.
The 50% price point makes the PDFs affordable to those who really want them.
Ideal for neither party, but better than what we have now. Isn't that the essence of compromise?
The biggest no brainer to me is to at least put the 2E and older PDF's up again. I really think that they are that different from 4E that they aren't going to cannibalise sales.
If anything it may help to reduce some of the ill-will people feel towards WotC for taking them down in the first place. I don't imagine that they will sell hugely well but people like the ability to buy them if they so choose.
I don't know what their best option is in regards to 4E PDF's.
Olaf the Stout
__________________
Currently running my group through the Shackled City Adventure Path
I am not a pdf person, but I, too, would like to see old 2E, 3E and such pdfs made available again. I like osme of the adventures, and would be willing to buy a few of them.
And hoestly, if anyone wants any of these illegally, they are no more than a few clicks away.
As for new 4E pdfs, it is a harder question. Illegal copies are out there, so why not sell the real ones legally, maybe 30-60 days after the books are out. If I wantto book, I'm not waiting an extra couple of months to get the pfd, and I imagine not many people will be either.
And selling them at about 50% is highway robbery, but a lot of people might pay for it. For sure WOTC would make 3-4 times as much on a 50%-off pdf than the physical book. Maybe 7-10 times.
Whatever they do, it should be seperate from the DDI. Or at least give non-DDI people an option to legally purchase WOTC products in pdf form.
Since the vast, vast majority of hardcopy sales happen *way* before 60 to 90 days, the waiting period should address the fear that the PDF and hardback would compete with one another.
But that wasn't the fear. They feared piracy of their PDFs. Any suggestion would have to address that fear.
But that wasn't the fear. They feared piracy of their PDFs. Any suggestion would have to address that fear.
And it actually does.
Keep in mind, the worry is that piracy hurt hard cover sales. The worry is not that piracy hurt pdf sales.
Lots of people who want the pdf will wait the (well ok maybe not a full month and a half) time to get the legal one, and pirates could very most likely also wait that long, as it's easier to turn a pre-existing pdf into the pirated version then it is to completely scan and destroy a physical book to do so.
The end result is that the first day piracy will drop sharply, which is the main concern.
I'd just...maybe scale it back from a month and a half ;p.
That said, stick up the older edition .pdfs. Taking those out was just asinine.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
It seems obvious we aren't going to get the perfect solution for everyone. It also seems obvious that the current situation is untenable, especially for a company that is rapidly becoming all about digital delivery. We need a compromise.
There is a world of difference between "I don't like their policy" and "the situation is untenable."
I see absolutely zero motivation for WotC here. They will stick to their guns until a compelling plan that stops people from pirating the pdfs comes up. This is just wishful thinking.
The "first 30 days" argument doesn't hold much water. WotC wants to keep making money on the Players Handbook even after a month after release.
Or they could do like every other successful business does and budget for a certain amount of shrink and accept that as the cost of doing business.
It really doesn't matter what they do, there will always be some level of piracy, if even for just the challenge of doing so.
The only real way to get WotC to start selling PDFs again is to, en masse, vote with your cash and stop buying any/all WotC product.
I would argue that the real way to vote isn't with your cash but with your internet connection.
I'm not saying you should do this! But I think if D&D products saw a very strong RISE in piracy, WotC might have to question their actions.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
IMHO the "30 day delay" policy makes the most sense: releasing PDFs with just enough delay that it's not practical for pirates to scan & OCR their own version, and the easiest way to see new stuff is to buy the book yourself or subscribe to DDI.
Basically, if you make the legal route more convenient than piracy, you've caught as large a chunk of consumers as you ever could. And they will like you for it, as opposed to resenting you.
Case, point, set and match: the iTunes store.
Cheers, -- N
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
IMHO the "30 day delay" policy makes the most sense: releasing PDFs with just enough delay that it's not practical for pirates to scan & OCR their own version, and the easiest way to see new stuff is to buy the book yourself or subscribe to DDI.
Basically, if you make the legal route more convenient than piracy, you've caught as large a chunk of consumers as you ever could. And they will like you for it, as opposed to resenting you.
Case, point, set and match: the iTunes store.
Cheers, -- N
See, there you go again with that logic stuff.
Seriously though, what you said makes sense. IMO, it's the only approach to the piracy situation that does make sense. But for some reason, logic just is not prevailing at WotC when it comes to this subject (or other subjects, but that's a whole other kettle of fish). For the life of me, I just don't understand why. It makes zero sense to me.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
Or don't really care much about getting the PDFs or about their PDF policy. Even if WotC felt some compulsion to put their products up as PDFs, I doubt they would drop much from their "full cover price of print copy" anyway.
Look at WotCs policies from the beginning, and their current policy makes a lot of sense. First, their pricing makes it clear that they are only interested in serving the market that has trouble getting the print products, or that feel that they are getting value out of playing that price (the fact that people from WotC have stated that is a bonus bit of support). I know that market exists, but I doubt it is large enough that WotC is swearing over losing that source of revenue. Dropping PDFs of current product lines is probably not very painful.
Second, they have also had the policy for a while of "only one edition in print." The one exception to that has been the PDFs. Pulling old edition PDFs makes sense for them when you realize that has been their reasoning for a while. I would be surprised if they put them back up if they decided to start releasing PDFs again.
Third, they have had a policy of supporting the game stores that has been openly stated. How well they do this certainly can be argued, but it has been the reason behind a number of their polices. In fact, the price of the new PDFs has been one of the policies that have used this justification (they don't want the PDFs to draw off sales of print products because of price). The fact that the older products are removed also helps the game stores (since many of them have stock of older products, which of lost value since the PDFs were available).
I would not be completely surprised if sometime in the future WotC finds a solution to releasing internet versions of their products. I doubt it will be soon, and I am almost certain it will not be the "cheap, readily available, easily copyable" products that some are hoping for.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
I'm not saying you should do this! But I think if D&D products saw a very strong RISE in piracy, WotC might have to question their actions.
Given their response to pdfs, my only thought is what will WotC's reponse be if/when somebody distributes a cracked version of the character builder/monster builder.
Or the eventual response to DDI content being out there (e-zines, builder updates, etc).
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
The best method would be to use a PDF stamping feature. Stamp the buyer's name, e-mail and the transaction ID on the top-left of each page of the PDF before the download. Unlike DRM, this is a simple, non-intrusive way to discourage buyers from sharing their PDFs.
E-Junkie uses this method, and it works pretty well.
I've already done this, but apparently enough others haven't.
Damn addicts just can't stop buying their RPG's.
Weak willed losers. Pthththththt!
I haven't bought anything from WotC in a long time. Mind you, they haven't had anything that I have really wanted in a long time, either.... (Ironically, PDFs of older edition material is about all that I would be buying from WotC - their PDF policy has removed any incentive that I might have to purchase from them....)
The Auld Grump
__________________ Oh, I am a cook, and a captain bold, and the mate of the Nancy brig,
The midship mite,
And the Bo'sun tight,
And the crew of the captain's gig...
Second, they have also had the policy for a while of "only one edition in print." The one exception to that has been the PDFs. Pulling old edition PDFs makes sense for them when you realize that has been their reasoning for a while. I would be surprised if they put them back up if they decided to start releasing PDFs again.
I need to step in here - there is a very, very stark difference between full printed support of an edition, which costs money, and running the pdfs, which doesn't.
The reason only one edition is in print is because that DOES potentially fracture sales, not necessarily from 4e (since both products give money to WotC all the same) but by causing a small trickle of buyers for books. This trickle cannot fully be supported, so you're stuck either ignoring a mess you created, or bleeding yourself trying to support them.
Incidentally, .pdfs have none of those problems at all. In fact, .pdfs of older editions are one and only one thing: Profit. Pure, unrelenting profit.
That's why it's so boggling and asinine that WotC pulled those too.
It isn't about stopping pirating, it's not about profits, it's not about sales margins. It's about companies that are pushed to "do something about pirates," then bungle it hard, and now refuse to own up.
Speaking of which, I don't think WotC is going to bring back pdfs. At all. Period. Even if they make a sudden and revolutionary DRM for pdfs that cannot be bypassed, WotC will still ignore people who perfer older editions, and tell those that like 4e to subscribe to DDI.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
I need to step in here - there is a very, very stark difference between full printed support of an edition, which costs money, and running the pdfs, which doesn't.
The reason only one edition is in print is because that DOES potentially fracture sales, not necessarily from 4e (since both products give money to WotC all the same) but by causing a small trickle of buyers for books. This trickle cannot fully be supported, so you're stuck either ignoring a mess you created, or bleeding yourself trying to support them.
Incidentally, .pdfs have none of those problems at all. In fact, .pdfs of older editions are one and only one thing: Profit. Pure, unrelenting profit.
That's why it's so boggling and asinine that WotC pulled those too.
It isn't about stopping pirating, it's not about profits, it's not about sales margins. It's about companies that are pushed to "do something about pirates," then bungle it hard, and now refuse to own up.
Speaking of which, I don't think WotC is going to bring back pdfs. At all. Period. Even if they make a sudden and revolutionary DRM for pdfs that cannot be bypassed, WotC will still ignore people who perfer older editions, and tell those that like 4e to subscribe to DDI.
We've been trough this before, but I guess it needs repeating.
PDF sales are not free. People seem to think cost of goods is the only cost of business. It's not. In fact, for most products, it is not even the majority of costs.
WOTC supports PDF sales with accounting, marketing, customer service, insurance, equipment, salaries, benefits, electricity, and dozens and dozens of other overhead costs. ALL products sold of any kind are computed in overhead costs. And yes, even when a 3rd party handles the sales.
Usually at this point people respond something along the lines of "but it cannot be that much support and associated costs for old PDFs". Yes, yes it is a lot. Any business owner will tell you, all your products, no matter how sold, have an overhead cost associated with them. Even if you sell something through someone else, you still get customer service calls, and you still have to deal with that third party vendor, and you still have to account for it (particularly with a public company, which has federal accounting standards), and you still have to track stuff, and even with a small amount of marketing you still need to do that and track that and test performances and such. It all has a cost.
There is a cost of PDFs for WOTC. It was not immaterial. Particularly for older edition stuff, which they have said sold very little.
There is a cost of PDFs for WOTC. It was not immaterial. Particularly for older edition stuff, which they have said sold very little.
Possibly becasue players of AD&D already have books or were able to find inexpensive print copies of 1E/2E core books (I was a Half Price books in Seattle where it was listed as "nostalgia").
I like the old rulebooks and wonder if the rights could simply be passed off to another company or if that would damage the brand.
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