General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
there appears to be a consensus that campaign settings and adventures are desirable. Various posts in that thread alluded to people not being as interested in "generic dungeon crawl" type of modules, epitomized by the WotC 4E modules already released (ie. H/P/E series) and maybe some of the 4E Dungeon Crawl Classics modules released by Goodman Games.
By the term "generic dungeon crawls", I'm guessing these would be modules which are a series of encounters whether inside a "dungeon" or outside of a dungeon (ie. wilderness, inside a town, etc ...), which are strung together with a storyline of some sort. (A wilderness "dungeon crawl" could be a series of predetermined and/or random encounters, going from one location to another location). Such generic "dungeon crawls" could be a linear railroad, or they could have alternate side adventures. Role playing may or may not be the main emphasis, where skill challenges can be sometimes done.
The question here is, what types of alternative "non dungeon crawl-ish" adventures are there which could be done within the constraints of the DDI character builder? (That is, adventures which do not resemble WotC 4E style generic "dungeon crawls" and which do not require the addition of new 3pp player specific crunch).
The type of adventures people may be looking for are perhaps more organic and less rigidly structured. A selection of locations and items of interest, statistics for those items (creatures, traps, treasure,etc,), some reasons that the PC's might be there, and motivations and plans that the PC's may come into conflict with are good enough for prepared module contents.
What isn't needed is a force feeding of activity catigorization based on artificial constructs.What do I mean by that?
There will be a fight here on soundstage one followed by a brief interlude. Move on to fights two and three followed by skill challenge one. A failure here means a tougher fight four, success means an easier fight four. Move then to fights five through seven, leading up to skill challenge two.......
Provide motivations, statistics and possible interactions and just let play happen.
The type of adventures people may be looking for are perhaps more organic and less rigidly structured. A selection of locations and items of interest, statistics for those items (creatures, traps, treasure,etc,), some reasons that the PC's might be there, and motivations and plans that the PC's may come into conflict with are good enough for prepared module contents.
What isn't needed is a force feeding of activity catigorization based on artificial constructs.What do I mean by that?
There will be a fight here on soundstage one followed by a brief interlude. Move on to fights two and three followed by skill challenge one. A failure here means a tougher fight four, success means an easier fight four. Move then to fights five through seven, leading up to skill challenge two.......
Provide motivations, statistics and possible interactions and just let play happen.
Good Post Exploder ... less choreography more big picture.
The type of adventures people may be looking for are perhaps more organic and less rigidly structured. A selection of locations and items of interest, statistics for those items (creatures, traps, treasure,etc,), some reasons that the PC's might be there, and motivations and plans that the PC's may come into conflict with are good enough for prepared module contents.
Provide motivations, statistics and possible interactions and just let play happen.
Classic dungeon design basically follows this format. The more programmed style was not as popular back in the day. In a lot of ways, the programmed adventure is a strange crossbreed of the dungeon with an events-based, storytelling-based style.
The type of adventures people may be looking for are perhaps more organic and less rigidly structured. A selection of locations and items of interest, statistics for those items (creatures, traps, treasure,etc,), some reasons that the PC's might be there, and motivations and plans that the PC's may come into conflict with are good enough for prepared module contents.
...
Provide motivations, statistics and possible interactions and just let play happen.
This sounds a bit like how some older 1E AD&D modules were written.
Exactly. I just started running my first 4E campaign recently, the 2nd session is tonight. I used the 2E module Return to the Keep on the Borderlands as a basic starting point and added some things in. I have stats ready for everything in the area but I don't know which ones will get used for combat. The players may make allies of some of the potential enemies, they may meet but not fight or ally with others, who knows?
A big part of the fun is not knowing where things are going until they get there.
The type of adventures people may be looking for are perhaps more organic and less rigidly structured. A selection of locations and items of interest, statistics for those items (creatures, traps, treasure,etc,), some reasons that the PC's might be there, and motivations and plans that the PC's may come into conflict with are good enough for prepared module contents.
What isn't needed is a force feeding of activity catigorization based on artificial constructs.What do I mean by that?
There will be a fight here on soundstage one followed by a brief interlude. Move on to fights two and three followed by skill challenge one. A failure here means a tougher fight four, success means an easier fight four. Move then to fights five through seven, leading up to skill challenge two.......
Provide motivations, statistics and possible interactions and just let play happen.
In principle, one can do this in a half-assed manner by taking a 4E generic "dungeon crawl-ish" module and eliminating the specific order of the encounters, skill challenges, etc ... and making it less railroady.
Though if one does this for the 4E WotC "Keep on the Shadowfell" H1 or "Thunderspire Labyrinth" H2 modules to have more of a "sandbox" style with respect to the order of the encounters and skill challenges (by eliminating some stuff and less restrictions on the order of the encounters), I don't think the play would be that much different. (There are obvious exceptions such as going straight to Kalarel's lair in H1 or going straight to Paldemar's lair in H2, at the very beginning of the game).
What other viable adventure types are there, besides a sandbox-like module or a railroady generic "dungeon crawl"?
Last edited by ggroy; 2nd October 2009 at 08:43 PM..
What other viable adventure types are there besides a sandbox-like module/setting or a railroady generic "dungeon crawl"?
How about a mystery to solve like the murder in 1E module L2 Assassins Knot?
There were locations to visit, NPC's to interact with and events in motion going on during the investigation that put pressure on the party to not waste time. The players controlled the flow of the investigation and the methods used to conduct it. NPC's were linked to locations but not stuck in time until the party showed up. People moved around, depending on the time of day making the town and events more lifelike.
How about a mystery to solve like the murder in 1E module L2 Assassins Knot?
There were locations to visit, NPC's to interact with and events in motion going on during the investigation that put pressure on the party to not waste time. The players controlled the flow of the investigation and the methods used to conduct it. NPC's were linked to locations but not stuck in time until the party showed up. People moved around, depending on the time of day making the town and events more lifelike.
Another adventure type I can think of offhand, would be a spy or espionage type mission. Though something like this would probably be like a lot of role playing and doing skill challenges, than extensive combat. This would probably be more like a short mission, than anything which would encompass an entire D&D module.
But if I really wanted to play a spy/espionage type of rpg game, it may be easier to just open up my old Top Secret or James Bond rpg books, than playing something that is "shoehorned" into a fantasy game like 4E D&D.
Organic adventurers would be very difficult to write because they would depend almost wholly on how the Game Master runs his players through things.
For example, some of the things I keep hearing about are wanting more motivations and roles and options for NPCs. Most NPCs that the players are going to interact with fall into enemy or ally and for the ally part, most of those fall into patron or background/quest giver.
To get into something that would provide a lot of options for a GM would almost be like releasing a book of NPCs with numerous plots and complications that would link them together.
The problem is that it's a 'spider' web type relationship and D&D is fairly a straight up game where level advancement is the true currency of the game.
Having X happen in stage Y and not effect other parts of the 'adventure' would require the GM to have numerous sets of generic stats so that when players had to react in the game towards the individuals, that there would be an appropriate level encounter for them.
In games like GURPS or Hero, while that's true to a point, it's certainly not as ingrained in the game system. A 10th level character and a 20th level character are as different asn ight and day while a 250 point character isn't as powerful as a 275 but they're still in the same.... sphere.
Building non-Dungeon related adventurers would rely on the Game Master being willing to run the campaign more along the veins of open sourced material ala 2nd edition where there were numerous things like the Site books or the various guild books based on the classes with numerous background details and a few bits of crunch.
The problem in those though, is do most games stick together long enough to make running them worth while? Is the GM going to have the same crop of players to allow an 'organic' published campaign to thrive?
One of the strengths of 4e is it's very 'sit down and play' nature. Non-dungeon crawls work heavily against that grain.
Having X happen in stage Y and not effect other parts of the 'adventure' would require the GM to have numerous sets of generic stats so that when players had to react in the game towards the individuals, that there would be an appropriate level encounter for them.
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Building non-Dungeon related adventurers would rely on the Game Master being willing to run the campaign more along the veins of open sourced material ala 2nd edition where there were numerous things like the Site books or the various guild books based on the classes with numerous background details and a few bits of crunch.
To do an "organic" system of modules and setting effectively, I would guess that one may very well have to extensively document a lot of the setting's world such as what was done with Mystara or Forgotten Realms. These days it seems like WotC doesn't have the appetite for doing such a thing again. I don't know whether a 3PP company has the fortitude and resources to take on such a huge undertaking.
The downside of a heavily documented world whether through supplement books and/or novels, is how the "canon lawyers" frequently become a menace and completely ruin a setting.
The question here is, what types of alternative "non dungeon crawl-ish" adventures are there which could be done within the constraints of the DDI character builder? (That is, adventures which do not resemble WotC 4E style generic "dungeon crawls" and which do not require the addition of new 3pp player specific crunch).
Two words: Willie Walsh.
More than two words: The problem isn't the content, it's the way it's executed. It seems like everybody's interested in being "old school," except than when old school was the only school, being new, innovative, or simply awesome was what was interesting. Nowadays it seems like "old school" means tossing people at a collection of encounters wrapped in a dungeon and dressed up with a bare minimum of backstory and plot.
Give me intriguing dungeon dressing. Give me back story, mystery, and hints I can use to tantalize the players. Use some of the great encounter design vs. player type advice in DMG2. Give me a new way of approaching the adventure, politics, real consequences for failure... heck, real possibility of failure. Stop spoon-feeding me. Build an encounter that's level -6 and make it FUN. Build an encounter that's level +10 and make IT fun. Erase that skill challenge's series of dice rolls and turn it an event. Something we can actually PLAY.
This isn't a 4e vs. 3e thing. I love 4e. It's not about DDI or not DDI. Great adventures aren't about the ruleset or the crunch; they're about the creativity. Stop phoning it in.
I wonder if Open Design successfully fills the desire for "non-WOTC" type adventures? From the grumbling I see online, I guess not
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggroy
But if I really wanted to play a spy/espionage type of rpg game, it may be easier to just open up my old Top Secret or James Bond rpg books, than playing something that is "shoehorned" into a fantasy game like 4E D&D.
Personally I'm interested in wilderness hex-crawl, naval sea-crawl, underdark cave-crawl, urban pub-crawl... - basically anything but the standard WotC/Goodman Dungeon-crawl.
Edit: WotC/DCC dungeons aren't really 'old school' because they tend to be linear sequences of set-piece encounters, without the strategic depth you get in a good old-school dungeon. In my last campaign I ran two old-school modules, B7 Rahasia and B5 Horror on the Hill, followed by 2 DCCs. The DCCs' design proved very lacklustre in comparison to the old TSR mods, often devolving to fight-fight-fight. By contrast the TSR mods had an emphasis on exploration and a very wide variety of choices in what to do and where to go.
I think good module design is an art that has rather been lost. The Necromancer 3e mods come closer than the DCCs, but even they feel a bit lacking IME. Even with the mods up on Dragonsfoot, I think the ones that feel really fresh and also strategically interesting tend to be the "This is my dungeon from 1978" ones, like The Endless Tunnels of Enlandin, rather than more recent efforts.
I have some of the older 1st ed Spycraft and Shadowforce Archer books. But I have not been able to convince my present group or previous gaming groups to play it. My previous gaming groups were more interested in Top Secret for a spy/espionage type game.
Personally I'm interested in wilderness hex-crawl, naval sea-crawl, underdark cave-crawl, urban pub-crawl... - basically anything but the standard WotC/Goodman Dungeon-crawl.
Edit: WotC/DCC dungeons aren't really 'old school' because they tend to be linear sequences of set-piece encounters, without the strategic depth you get in a good old-school dungeon. In my last campaign I ran two old-school modules, B7 Rahasia and B5 Horror on the Hill, followed by 2 DCCs. The DCCs' design proved very lacklustre in comparison to the old TSR mods, often devolving to fight-fight-fight. By contrast the TSR mods had an emphasis on exploration and a very wide variety of choices in what to do and where to go.
I think good module design is an art that has rather been lost. The Necromancer 3e mods come closer than the DCCs, but even they feel a bit lacking IME. Even with the mods up on Dragonsfoot, I think the ones that feel really fresh and also strategically interesting tend to be the "This is my dungeon from 1978" ones, like The Endless Tunnels of Enlandin, rather than more recent efforts.
When do you believe the "art of good module design" started falling to the wayside and lost?
I suspect the "art of good module design" started to fall by the wayside when the Dragonlance modules came along. I don't remember many AD&D modules being excessively railroady before Dragonlance. I felt the quality of the AD&D modules got progressively less interesting as time went on. By the time 2E came around, the "art of good module design" was probably more or less "lost" by then.
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it until someone listens and put sit out so I can buy it, but I want short side treks. Something I can drop into my campaign and deal with in a session (or two at the most), that allows me to weave the rest of the campaign around it and doesn come to dominate the entire campaign.
Link enough of these together, and the players get the sense of a "sandbox" type campaign, even though i lack the ability to actually run one.
I detest these modules that dominate my campaigns by taking 3 - 4 levels to complete. I detest even more DUNGEONS that take more than 1 level to complete. I don't even like taking an extended rest in a dungeon.
- basically anything but the standard WotC/Goodman Dungeon-crawl.
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