General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Well, Brent, I just want to say that I got pretty nervous when I saw your entry. I felt there were some total strokes of genius - for example, using the trolls gave the PCs a pretty big option. They could attack the trolls (with a weapon that gave them a huge advantage), or let things go easy with them. I was also pretty nervous because, well, my housewives weren't really strongly housewives.... their earlier marriages weren't really a plot element, but a background element. Looking back, I should have kept them married, and used their husbands a bit more.
So, I felt that you had me beat on most of the ingredients, with the possible exception of the Dry Well.
In any case, I thought it was a pretty close match, myself. Looking forward to next year - and your submission.
I think you beat me pretty soundly. Trying to keep it short (I was at 1800 words) I left out my background for the swamp and why it was haunted and how that tied in to previous wars between men and trolls.
My "dry well" was obviously just a dry hole in the ground going to the Elemental Chaos. Again, some more description and such might have helped, but then it would have made it much longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wik
As for the 4e "controversy", I think it is a much easier adventure to write adventures for than 3e, for sure. I can understand Phoam's dislike of part of the system, but after running it for a year, I think it can actually make better adventures than 3e once the GM knows what s/he's doing. At least, it works that way for me.
I thought this was a no brainer 4e adventure. The skill challenges to cross the swamp and interaction with the potential enemies/allies . . . well, maybe it's just me. I love 4e and how easy it is to whip out encounters. I kept my encounter descriptions short, mainly because I felt like any DM can grab the Monster Builder and put together level appropriate encounters with the right monsters/feel. If I had written up the traps/obstacles/terrain for the final encounter that alone would have probably been 500 words or more!
I enjoyed it, even if phoamslinger did rip me a new one.
And, yeah, I didn't read his post before I posted . . . oops.
Gavin Ward - Male Human Warlord 1 - The party started a bar fight. The fellow who escaped brought his bandit buddies back and they killed Gavin (and nearly three other party members). He bled out while lying on the floor.
4th Ed Kills:
Spoiler:
Cornell Butterworth - Male Human Wizard 1 - Knocked unconscious by a kobold dragonshield the fighter ignored, then done in by the kobold wyrmpriest's acid breath.
Lithia - Female Elven Ranger 11 - Contracted mummy rot, which eventually did her in.
Brendan Stetlan - Male Human Fighter 4 - Knocked unconscious in combat, then thrown to the wolves.
Vindicator Mindartis Valenae - Eladrin Paladin 5 - Dropped by a githzerai monk (L6 elite), and killed when the rogue threw him off the balcony to try and get his body to safety.
Vongar - Male Dwarf Paladin 1 - Fell in battle after defeating Irontooth, but not his bodyguard.
Straef - Male Elf Ranger 1 - Fell in battle to Irontooth's Wyrmpriest.
I thought this was a no brainer 4e adventure. The skill challenges to cross the swamp and interaction with the potential enemies/allies . . . well, maybe it's just me. I love 4e and how easy it is to whip out encounters.
Just to make it clear that there's some diversity in Judging going on . . . I'm a big fan of 4e. I'm running two active campaigns, playing in more, and have absolutely no desire to go back to 3.5. That said, I think that the values of the Iron DM, and of the Rat Bastard Dungeon Masters as a whole, are values that transcend edition. Creating an evocative scene for your players, creating a story that they can get engaged with, doing more than stringing together a daisy chain of combat encounters -- that's a real challenge no matter which edition you're playing, and it's the difference between a good referee and a good dungeon master.
So, I respect Phoamy's antipathy for 4e, but I think in the end we're all talking about the same core ideas, anyway, so it doesn't matter if he's off his nut.
Just to make it clear that there's some diversity in Judging going on . . . I'm a big fan of 4e. I'm running two active campaigns, playing in more, and have absolutely no desire to go back to 3.5. That said, I think that the values of the Iron DM, and of the Rat Bastard Dungeon Masters as a whole, are values that transcend edition. Creating an evocative scene for your players, creating a story that they can get engaged with, doing more than stringing together a daisy chain of combat encounters -- that's a real challenge no matter which edition you're playing, and it's the difference between a good referee and a good dungeon master.
So, I respect Phoamy's antipathy for 4e, but I think in the end we're all talking about the same core ideas, anyway, so it doesn't matter if he's off his nut.
-rg
True enough, and I mostly agree. I think, in a hypothetical situation where two contestants submitted entries, and entry #1 was 3.5E, and #2 was 4e, that any of the current IRON DM judges' system preference wouldn't really come into play. They are approaching things fairly, of that I have no doubt.
I have to disagree, though, with your last statement, about how we're all talking about the "same core ideas". A different edition of preference can and will influence "core" ideas of D&D.
See, and here's where I agree with Brent's original point, there is the fact that some of the ingredients listed so far show a system preference, in terms of names and the like. To use an example (and I'm only using it because it's one I noticed, being involved and all), the "rogue hydra".
I saw that, and instantly thought "How does a hydra go 'rogue'? Aren't they 'rogue' and untamed by nature?". Brent thought the same thing, so we played with the terms. I think my "rogue" part of the entry was pretty weak - the only "rogue" part about it was how it was heading toward the main town on a warpath. But that was as close as I could get.
Turns out, when the judge thought of the ingredients, he was thinking along the lines of "rogue as a character class" hydra. Which, in any edition but 3E, isn't really a common way of thinking (you can't make a solo monster like a hydra into a rogue in 4e without some serious tweaking). So, that ingredient as intended had an obvious system bias - your own system of preference would influence how you viewed it.
To take the example a bit further, let's say I was perfect with my "rogue" hydra description. Let's say it was a trained hydra, and then it escaped from a circus or something, thus "going rogue". That's a valid use of the ingredient. But let's say my opponent thinks "rogue as a character class", because he's still thinking 3E, and makes a rogue as a character class hydra.
We both submit an ingredient, and we both use it well. If the entries are close, and the judge goes through ingredient by ingredient, who wins in this contest? We both used different interpretations of the same ingredient, but the winner is going to be the guy whose entry appeals most to the judge's edition of preference, because the judge will look at the rogue hydra he was thinking of when creating it, and look at the other hydra and say "well, it isn't really rogue".
For what it's worth, I'm not complaining about the judging system. It will have its holes, obviously, and problems like this arise in much larger competitions than this one. I just think it's an issue that should be considered by the judges, who may not realize that their own edition preferences can influence how they view an ingredient.
Another example: If the judge puts forward "blue dragon" as an ingredient, thinking of older edition blues, he has to be prepared for the 4e player to submit an ocean adventure as opposed to the 3e player's desert adventure... they're both equally "right". His preference for how blues are "supposed" to be should not influence the choices the contestants make in their entry... just the entry's value and adherence to the ingredients given.
My two cents. Hope it makes my point, without sounding like I'm complaining or anything like that. Just trying to point out that sometimes edition of preference can influence "core" ideas of D&D.
__________________ Current Campaign:The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.
If the judge puts forward "blue dragon" as an ingredient, thinking of older edition blues, he has to be prepared for the 4e player to submit an ocean adventure as opposed to the 3e player's desert adventure... they're both equally "right".
Good points raised, Wik. Mind you, even as a rabid 4th Edition enthusiast, I still run my blue dragons in deserts.
Also, when are Rechan and I facing off? Going by the unofficial list, I thought it was going to start today?
__________________ 4th Ed Chars Fallen:
Spoiler:
Gavin Ward - Male Human Warlord 1 - The party started a bar fight. The fellow who escaped brought his bandit buddies back and they killed Gavin (and nearly three other party members). He bled out while lying on the floor.
4th Ed Kills:
Spoiler:
Cornell Butterworth - Male Human Wizard 1 - Knocked unconscious by a kobold dragonshield the fighter ignored, then done in by the kobold wyrmpriest's acid breath.
Lithia - Female Elven Ranger 11 - Contracted mummy rot, which eventually did her in.
Brendan Stetlan - Male Human Fighter 4 - Knocked unconscious in combat, then thrown to the wolves.
Vindicator Mindartis Valenae - Eladrin Paladin 5 - Dropped by a githzerai monk (L6 elite), and killed when the rogue threw him off the balcony to try and get his body to safety.
Vongar - Male Dwarf Paladin 1 - Fell in battle after defeating Irontooth, but not his bodyguard.
Straef - Male Elf Ranger 1 - Fell in battle to Irontooth's Wyrmpriest.
To use an example (and I'm only using it because it's one I noticed, being involved and all), the "rogue hydra".
I saw that, and instantly thought "How does a hydra go 'rogue'? Aren't they 'rogue' and untamed by nature?".
Turns out, when the judge thought of the ingredients, he was thinking along the lines of "rogue as a character class" hydra.
I have won many rounds through (or perhaps in spite of) deliberately playing with the meaning of the words.
No judge in my experience has ever dinged me because he had a specific word usage in mind that I failed to meet. Personally, when I see an ingredient like "rogue hydra," expect the judge to look for alternate meanings.
The first thing I do, each and every time I get the ingredient list, is go over the ingredients and look for alternate meanings. If you find alternate meanings for the ingredients, you expand your ingredient list, which makes it easier to make connections.
(Probably shouldn't be giving away my secrets like that.)
Good points raised, Wik. Mind you, even as a rabid 4th Edition enthusiast, I still run my blue dragons in deserts.
Also, when are Rechan and I facing off? Going by the unofficial list, I thought it was going to start today?
Me too, actually.
the "blue dragon" thing was one of those that I think 4e sort of screwed up on... along with Myconids and Hydras (I don't like how hydras don't regenerate anymore).
__________________ Current Campaign:The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.
I have won many rounds through (or perhaps in spite of) deliberately playing with the meaning of the words.
No judge in my experience has ever dinged me because he had a specific word usage in mind that I failed to meet. Personally, when I see an ingredient like "rogue hydra," expect the judge to look for alternate meanings.
The first thing I do, each and every time I get the ingredient list, is go over the ingredients and look for alternate meanings. If you find alternate meanings for the ingredients, you expand your ingredient list, which makes it easier to make connections.
(Probably shouldn't be giving away my secrets like that.)
One of the things I try to do is use each ingredient twice. That is not always possible but very often when you take a little time to look at the words you can come up with two different ways in which the word might be applied. For instand, when I looked up the word Skerry for the entry wind Skerry, I found that there were three possible definitions. The third, a type of rat, didn't really speak to me, but the image of rocks sticking out of the ocean became, in my mind, rocks floating in the wind. Likewise the idea of a boat sailing between these rocks was a natural transition. Thus I incorporated both of the possible meanings of skerry into the adventure.
I have won many rounds through (or perhaps in spite of) deliberately playing with the meaning of the words.
No judge in my experience has ever dinged me because he had a specific word usage in mind that I failed to meet. Personally, when I see an ingredient like "rogue hydra," expect the judge to look for alternate meanings.
The first thing I do, each and every time I get the ingredient list, is go over the ingredients and look for alternate meanings. If you find alternate meanings for the ingredients, you expand your ingredient list, which makes it easier to make connections.
(Probably shouldn't be giving away my secrets like that.)
Yeah, I did that too, for my submission. I seriously considered the idea of my "Dry well" being "dry" in terms of alcohol-free (in a pirate town!). But I liked where I went with it more.
My point earlier though was that in our judge's review of our pieces, he specifically mentioned how he interpreted "rogue hydra" with an example. And I can guarantee it was one I never thought of, and this was entirely due to an edition preference of my own (though I probably would never have thought of it in my 3e years, either).
In any case, it's all academic. I'm looking forward to round two against you, Wulf. Thanks for the trade secrets.
__________________ Current Campaign:The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.
One of the things I try to do is use each ingredient twice. That is not always possible...
See, and I saw that as a weakness in a few of the entries I've read. I can see how dipping into an ingredient twice could more deeply intwine it into phoamslinger's gordian knot, but the second use (when I noticed it) diluted the impact of the first use. In my head I said, 'oh, he didn't think the other was strong enough.'
But, hey, this is my first Iron DM. What do I know?!
See, and I saw that as a weakness in a few of the entries I've read. I can see how dipping into an ingredient twice could more deeply intwine it into phoamslinger's gordian knot, but the second use (when I noticed it) diluted the impact of the first use. In my head I said, 'oh, he didn't think the other was strong enough.'
But, hey, this is my first Iron DM. What do I know?!
I think it really depends on the ingredient. If it's something like, say, "gnolls", then you should drop it as many times as possible, and possibly give your other ingredients a gnoll theme. But, of course, if it's something pretty specific, like, um, "boots of speed", you might not want to go overboard.
Since we're sharing tricks, my rule for my last entry was that every ingredient had to tie into at least two other ingredients somehow, so that everything would seem organic, and not like mad libs or something. I kind of screwed that up in the end for one ingredient (my Bank Vault only had a connection to one - the wives wanted the treasure within), but I made sure that ingredient was necessary for driving the adventure so it wouldn't be forgotten.
I really like Phoam's earlier hint - basically, if your ingredient can be taken out of the adventure or replaced by something else without making a few changes, it isn't wedged into your adventure strongly enough.
__________________ Current Campaign:The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.
I saw that, and instantly thought "How does a hydra go 'rogue'? Aren't they 'rogue' and untamed by nature?". Brent thought the same thing, so we played with the terms. I think my "rogue" part of the entry was pretty weak - the only "rogue" part about it was how it was heading toward the main town on a warpath. But that was as close as I could get.
I should have gone into more detail on this one, but forgot until after I hit Submit, and then wasn't going to go back and edit. Wik your rogue hydra was kind of weak, but I gave you brownie points for the idea of the three women combining their pets into the form of a hydra. the dictionary definition I put into the judgement had the scoundrel listed there (and I'm sure is the basis for the rogue class as well), but there are other definitions about be twisty and sneaky, and your story gave me an interesting visual. So you got a "not really roguish but a really cool idea!" vote on that one.
but you really have hit on the reason I wasn't as impressed by Brent's rampaging hydra. yes it's a hurricane force of nature headed towards civilization, but how would that be any different from any other hydra that managed to get that big? other than being out of control, I just didn't feel that the Chaos Hydra was all that different from what a commonplace hydra would be doing in the same situation.
another side of the same item, why did it HAVE TO BE a hydra, rogue or otherwise? why did it have to be THAT potion, instead of some other fire-based weapon? why a dry well and not a cave or some other hole in the ground? etc. this is something all the judges look at to one extent or another. Brent's rampaging monster could have been replaced with any other type of rampaging monster and the players would have been none the wiser. your hydra was a combination of the pets and the women, which logically became the form of a hydra and it would have been difficult to justify it becoming something else without a lot more exposition.
that's why I considered your's to be the stronger ingredient.
Quote:
Turns out, when the judge thought of the ingredients, he was thinking along the lines of "rogue as a character class" hydra.
actually, no I was just giving that as an example to try and get you guys to think a little more out of the box. I wouldn't honestly have expected anyone to come up with that interpretation. I did want to see what you DID come up with to make the monster a "rogue". the answer was, neither of you did that well, but at least yours was twisty in a wierd way.
Fair enough. And, for the record Phoamy, I'm just one of those people that get caught in arguments waaaay too often. There was no personal problem with the interpretation or anything. I knew my hydra was weak as a "rogue", but it was one of those ingredients that really confused me. (Which is a good thing for this competition!) For the life of me, I couldn't think of a way a hydra could be "rogue" unless it broke loose from something - which is sort of their default nature.
When you posted your example later on, right after a claim that you hated 4e, it sort of cemented in my mind that 3.5E was your edition of preference, and that explained why you would use that example.
__________________ Current Campaign:The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.
I could use a status update. Where does the competition stand at the moment? Is there a summary post being updated?
I updated the unofficial roster over on page 4, but I haven't heard anything specific from the judges. Round 1 Match 4 (MortalPlague vs. Rechan) was supposed to start yesterday, but didn't...so it sort of threw off all of my dates.
I updated the unofficial roster over on page 4, but I haven't heard anything specific from the judges. Round 1 Match 4 (MortalPlague vs. Rechan) was supposed to start yesterday, but didn't...so it sort of threw off all of my dates.
Thanks!
Is it confirmed that I will face Wik in Round Two?
Is it confirmed that I will face Wik in Round Two?
Nothing has been confirmed. But if we are using the same single-elimination bracket that was used in previous Iron DM competitions, then I think so...the winner of Match 1 gets paired with the winner of Match 2, Match 3 with Match 4, and so forth. But this isn't official, it is just my observation.
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