General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
His bodyguards should not simply be an encounter power of Bahamut himself, but separate creatures which can be encountered with him (then the players are in trouble) or alone.
You can't find stats for a Gold Dragon? The whole point of the stat block is that represents a time when Bahamut is surrounded by his Gold Dragon Emissaries. If you want to play a cat and mouse game in which you pick off the gold dragons one by one, just pick up the MM2 or use the Rules Compendium.
You really don't get that 4e mechanics are supposed to be what happens in a scenario, not the complete mechanics of what characters/monsters are able to do at any given moment. I don't understand why you can't understand this, as it has been explained countless times.
No, not really. The one-use great wyrm items are so far away from the stats of real dragons that there is no way to hide the silliness of this mechanic.
There is no way 'for you' to hide the silliness of this mechanic. Clearly, many other DMs feel differently, and feel they are entirely capable of doing so, and you really aren't in a position to speak on their behalf. Or to imply that it only works if their players are drunk.
I mean, I genuinely am sorry that you don't feel you are a capable enough DM to pull this off. But one of the best parts of 4E has been given the DM the ability to weave together imagination, description and powers into a seamless whole. I admit some situations are more challenging than others, but it clearly is doable, and claiming otherwise is simply a dismissal of the accomplishments of a lot of skilled DMs out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derren
His bodyguards should not simply be an encounter power of Bahamut himself, but separate creatures which can be encountered with him (then the players are in trouble) or alone. That way the players have to figure out how to separate Bahamut from his bodyguards. Tiamats consort is also not just another one use power in her statblock.
Would you make an army an encounter power for a BBEG so that the PCs don't have to think of a way to get the BBEG without his men supporting him?
Yeah, uh... you are aware that you can, in fact, run the dragons precisely that way. Have the PCs fight them one at a time. But I'm guessing they feel that fighting a bunch of gold dragons in a row wouldn't be very good game design, and so didn't go that route. That doesn't mean you can't if you want to. But establishing that as the default - that Bahamut always has these allies, and that either the PCs fight them as a group (a terrible, terrible idea) or that they have to lure them away (removing them as a part of the encounter anyway)... yeah, that's just a bad idea, and bad design, no matter how you look at it.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
- Lazarus Long via Robert Heinlein.
Last edited by Garthanos; 23rd October 2009 at 07:17 PM..
he's dismissing a DM's ability to take the mechanic and make it as epic and cinematic as they want.
No. "Epic" and "Cinematic" has nothing to do with something being silly or not (Not completely correct. "Cinematic" and "Silly" very often go hand in hand). DMs making a combat with a deity cinematic should be pretty normal. That still doesn't change that the one use canaries are silly when you assume that thos canaries are his bodyguards (which is heavily implied).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMyth
I mean, I genuinely am sorry that you don't feel you are a capable enough DM to pull this off. But one of the best parts of 4E has been given the DM the ability to weave together imagination, description and powers into a seamless whole. I admit some situations are more challenging than others, but it clearly is doable, and claiming otherwise is simply a dismissal of the accomplishments of a lot of skilled DMs out there.
Only when the players don't look close enough. If they don't then 4e can of course be used to creating cinematic scenes, likely better than in previous editions. But when they start to look behind the cinematic effects they fill find silly mechanics. Some players care and some don't. I do care, not by choice, but because thats simply how I work. And thus I have a hard time understanding why someone would defend such a silly mechanic.
Quote:
Yeah, uh... you are aware that you can, in fact, run the dragons precisely that way. Have the PCs fight them one at a time. But I'm guessing they feel that fighting a bunch of gold dragons in a row wouldn't be very good game design, and so didn't go that route. That doesn't mean you can't if you want to. But establishing that as the default - that Bahamut always has these allies, and that either the PCs fight them as a group (a terrible, terrible idea) or that they have to lure them away (removing them as a part of the encounter anyway)... yeah, that's just a bad idea, and bad design, no matter how you look at it.
Except thats exactly what they did. Bahamut does always have this allies as default. Its just that their power varies considerably, depending on if they are encountered with Bahamut or alone.
In my eyes that is bad mechanic.
To make it make sense you either have to alter Bahamut or alter the fluff text of the bodyguards (the likely route to go). But as written by WotC its just silly.
And to try to get this thing semi on topic again. Subdual encounters look ok. Nice to see this implemented as more of a code of honour than a hard mechanic.
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is I my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
Only when the players don't look close enough. If they don't then 4e can of course be used to creating cinematic scenes, likely better than in previous editions. But when they start to look behind the cinematic effects they fill find silly mechanics. Some players care and some don't. I do care, not by choice, but because thats simply how I work. And thus I have a hard time understanding why someone would defend such a silly mechanic..
You're wrong; it is an awesome mechanic. I don't have any problems with this mechanic, it is awesome to me and not in the slightest bit silly.
__________________ Pablo El Vagabundo
"Mercy!? You want MERCY? I'M CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!!!"
Only when the players don't look close enough. If they don't then 4e can of course be used to creating cinematic scenes, likely better than in previous editions. But when they start to look behind the cinematic effects they fill find silly mechanics. Some players care and some don't. I do care, not by choice, but because thats simply how I work. And thus I have a hard time understanding why someone would defend such a silly mechanic.
Here is the main problem with your viewpoint - it isn't that some players recognize silly mechanics and don't care. It is that some players (read: many players) don't believe that those mechanics are silly. You do. I disagree. Clearly others in this thread do so. Most of the players I know do so. I am perfectly fine with you feeling otherwise. I am less fine with you stating that the reason for my belief is that I am too blind to recognize the 'truth' of the mechanics... or that I'm drunk or otherwise deluded. That's offensive.
And that's why you have a hard time understanding why someone would defend it. You are literally unwilling to even concede that the opposing viewpoint exists, let alone that there might any merit in it. And I guess there isn't much I can say to change your mind - not when people are coming forward, and saying they don't find this mechanic silly, and you genuinely feel they are lying about what they believe...
Maybe bahamut just like to use gold dragon as one use item... most of the times
I got that this is for when the character are hopelessly overpowered by Bahamut if the party is of 11 demigods then "maybe" it could be interesting to have a full scale battle between
"Bahamut and his 8 gold dragon bodyguard" vs "The Demigods Eleven"
Did they just validate Die Vecna Die as canon? Ewwww.
What would be more interesting than simply example organizations with dragons in them (which at least in this example are pretty much interchangeable with most other creatures) is an paragraph which talks about how dragons tend to run organizations as compared to humans and how their (hopefully) very different psychology affects ranks, recruiting, etc.
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is I my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
Just a small dragon lair/dungeon crawl.
Kill the dragon and go on....
I don't really see how this lair is any different than a chromatic dragon lair. The dragon certainly isn't (your only option is to fight).
And you get a first(?) look at the Orium dragon. It can throw stones and its breath weapon summons a minion (in addition to doing damage). The breath weapon recharges when the minion dies. So it might be better to simply ignore the minion.
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is I my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
Last edited by Derren; 30th October 2009 at 01:00 PM..
I hope the Bronze Dragon is redesigned closer to the Dragonlance setting. There they are the most ferocious and physically strongest metallic, going all the way back to the first Bronze, Burll. We already know the Bronze is going to be a Brute, so hopefully he will be written as lumbering behemoth able to deal serious damage.
If you wanna go old skool, go the whole way!! Don't be a wussy!!!
Why not consider the real-world gold-copper allow tumbaga for the mythological orichalcum? Then we can get the gold-silver alloy electrum and the silver-copper alloy billon.
Just a small dragon lair/dungeon crawl.
Kill the dragon and go on....
I don't really see how this lair is any different than a chromatic dragon lair. The dragon certainly isn't (your only option is to fight).
And you get a first(?) look at the Orium dragon. It can throw stones and its breath weapon summons a minion (in addition to doing damage). The breath weapon recharges when the minion dies. So it might be better to simply ignore the minion.
Awesome lair though some really nice ideas to swipe for an encounter.
Fighting on a rickety scaffold staircase should make for a memorable encounter.
Pour le Rouse! 
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
