4e / GSL 11th Century Europe D&D Campaign

[Scribble]

Ok So I'm musing over the idea of putting together a campaign set in the 11th century. Well, "sort of" the 11th century. Some magic would exist, (mostly artifacts and rituals) and there would be some monsters, but most of it would be kind of rare. I think I would limit it to the martial power source.

Still trying to decide WHEN in the 11th century I would place it, and debating other changes/limits as well.

I think I'd set it in Wales (as I've been reading Stephen Lawhead's take on Robin Hood lately so it's in my mind.)

Not sure also if I'd outright say Martial is the ONLY power source... I think it would be a bending rule... IE SOME other classes outside of martial would be available but on a case by case basis.

Thoughts?

[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Scribble

Thoughts?

You may want to check out the Feudal Lords stuff for 4e. Its high quality 3PP stuff with some nice ideas. It is set after 11th Century but it may still be of use.

IMO I would go with the low/no magic item option in the DMG. I would encourage martial power classes only, though allow mutliclassing into non-martial classes for PCs. Human only, though use backgrounds for diversity.

[Tallifer]

I would say skip Dungeons and Dragons (which I love nonehteless) and run Pendragon (which I love even more): it is specifically designed for fantastical, wondrous, exciting campaigns with "all-martial" parties in a legendary version of the literary Middle Ages. Easily adapted to any version of history. Or get a copy and steal many great ideas for your Dungeons and Dragons homewbrew.

[ArghMark]

I might suggest away from 4th edition at all, unless you still want heroic, wire-fu style combat to be common amongst heroes. Kind of goes against what I expect from a pseudo-historical game, though.

Have a look at Ars Magica, it is 13th century 'Mythic' Europe where the legends are true. Can be quite nice.

If you want to stick with the idea of more pseudo-historical combat but keep 4th edition, re-name and re-describe those abilities. It'll still be a tactical wargame but at least the fluff will gel with the setting.

[Mouseferatu]

I think you could probably allow the barbarian or the paladin, as long as the player stuck to the less "magic-looking" of their powers. If you want to add a little more magic, you could also go with the artificer from Eberron, but claim that it's all alchemical, rather than magic.

If you're going entirely with martial classes, I'd loosen up the rules for class skills. In fact, I'd say just let people take whatever skills they want, or even grant them a few bonus skills.

Take substantial advantage of "reskinning." Lots of the humanoid monsters--orcs, bugbears, etc.--could be cast as human bandits or barbarian warriors.

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by Tallifer

I would say skip Dungeons and Dragons

Originally Posted by ArghMark

I might suggest away from 4th edition at all...

Thanks for the suggestions guys, but I'm not really looking for the "don't use 4e" suggestions. I'm well aware of other game systems- I just think this would be interesting to do with 4e.

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

I think you could probably allow the barbarian or the paladin, as long as the player stuck to the less "magic-looking" of their powers. If you want to add a little more magic, you could also go with the artificer from Eberron, but claim that it's all alchemical, rather than magic.

Interesting idea for the artificer... Yeah I was thinking along those lines for the Barbarian as well- as long as nothing too overtly magic comes into play.

I haven't actually seen the Paladin in play, so I'm not fully aware of what it can do... You think it can be non magic appearing?

If you're going entirely with martial classes, I'd loosen up the rules for class skills. In fact, I'd say just let people take whatever skills they want, or even grant them a few bonus skills.

One thing I was thinking of doing was sort of building the skill packs based on what your like, "mold" was... IE if you're a priest in this world, while not a cleric, you would have knowledge religion as a class skill, etc...

Take substantial advantage of "reskinning." Lots of the humanoid monsters--orcs, bugbears, etc.--could be cast as human bandits or barbarian warriors.

Yeah- I'm thinking I would keep some monsters around, it just wouldn't be so in your face as a normal D&D campaign... Everyone might "know" there are fey in those woods, but they're rarely ever encountered... And probably a lot more on the "creepy" side of things.

Also Vlad the Impaler probably WOULD be a vampire... :P

[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Mouseferatu

If you're going entirely with martial classes, I'd loosen up the rules for class skills. In fact, I'd say just let people take whatever skills they want, or even grant them a few bonus skills.

Backgrounds do a decent job here already. If its not enough allow two backgrounds to have mechanical effect.

[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Tallifer

I would say skip Dungeons and Dragons (which I love nonehteless) and run Pendragon (which I love even more): it is specifically designed for fantastical, wondrous, exciting campaigns with "all-martial" parties in a legendary version of the literary Middle Ages. Easily adapted to any version of history. Or get a copy and steal many great ideas for your Dungeons and Dragons homewbrew.

For the naysayers, I recently ran a heroic tier all Martial Power game for 4e. The feel was 13th Warrior and not legendary wire-fu. As such, provided you are looking for a bit of action and not pure historical enactment, it should be OK.

[Andor]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the non human races. A teifling for example would need to be more human looking, but would otherwise fit right in. Merlin himself was supposed to be half-demon remember. Likewise half-elves make perfect sense as changelings. Maybe halflings are pictish woad warriors, and half-orcs as brutish viking raiders. Just shift the images 4 pts towards human and call it good.

[CapnZapp]

Originally Posted by Scribble

Thanks for the suggestions guys, but I'm not really looking for the "don't use 4e" suggestions. I'm well aware of other game systems- I just think this would be interesting to do with 4e.

Well in all fairness you did say "11th Century Europe".

Not "a high-octane sanitized 11th Century Las Vegas Europe".

I can't blame them for suggesting other games than D&D when it comes to a harsh, gritty, deeply religious period of time.

Zapp

PS. There's nothing wrong with your idea for a D&D game. It won't have much (if anything) in common with 11th Century Europe (D&D isn't known for its realism or historical authenticity), but that really isn't very relevant if everybody is having fun!

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by CapnZapp

Well in all fairness you did say "11th Century Europe".

Not "a high-octane sanitized 11th Century Las Vegas Europe".

I can't blame them for suggesting other games than D&D when it comes to a harsh, gritty, deeply religious period of time.

Zapp

PS. There's nothing wrong with your idea for a D&D game. It won't have much (if anything) in common with 11th Century Europe (D&D isn't known for its realism or historical authenticity), but that really isn't very relevant if everybody is having fun!

Well, to be fair, the 4e/GSL tag on the thread was probably a hint towards what kind of campaign he wanted to run...

Aside from that, could you please explain to me (using logical arguments, not feelings) why an all martial 4e campaign could not feel like 11th century Europe-ish?

[ferratus]

I'd need some more information before I'd give advice.

You said that there would be some magic, but I'm unsure of these aspects:

1) Is there going to be a feywilde/avalon or shadowfell/purgatory/sheol/hades? Is there a hell? Will you be following Christian Cosmology, Celtic Cosmology, or is it going to be a strictly physical universe?

2) Is magic rare, weak or hidden?

If it is rare, I'd probably require certain objects or talismans to both include and limit the magic. For example, a nail from Jesus' crucifixion welded to a sword's hilt might make it a holy avenger. A relic (bone, mummified flesh, object owned) from a saint might grant a single clerical power.

If it is weak, then I would probably tie fluctuations of magic to specific astrological cycles or demand high payments (such as human sacrifice (arcane or shadow) or extreme asceticism(divine). In other words, I would make magic unreliable except under certain conditions.

If magic is hidden, then I imagine it would be more like D20 modern or the Buffyverse, only set in the 11th century. Here the feywilde or the shadowfell would be sources of monsters, or sources of power. The general disapproval of witchcraft by both secular and religious authorities would help keep magic hidden, though of course there was no active inquistion directed against the practice of witchcraft. This was the 11th century after all, not the 16th. I imagine though that proven unrepentant worshippers of the devil would probably have been executed nonetheless.

3) Are there monsters? I guess I'm wondering if you want a political game or a mythological one. If you are largely interested in feudal warfare or going on crusade, then you'll probably have to worry more about collecting followers, maintaining a stronghold, or mass combat rules.

If you're planning to have a dungeon crawling game, then you will need monsters. Nobody is going to want to fight humans over and over again unless they are taking over the place, and if they're taking over the place they'd rather intrigue and negotiate themselves into power instead of using brute force.

There are many ways to bring monsters into the game while still maintaining a sense of historical Europe. Dragons were associated with greed or the devil, so a rapacious beast terrorizing the wilderlands or a wingless beast sitting on a lost horde in the deepest cavern in Wales. All you need for goblins is a Celtic barrow leading to the feywilde and some red caps. Undead can fit in as a defiled graveyard, a necromancer at the Cathedral School, or an old Roman vampire (I'd recommend Allectus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia since he was killed by the army of the father of the first Christian Emperor Constantine).

You can't do too many monsters of course, or it will break the mood of a historical Europe. If you want to go whole hog on the whole "monster/witch hunting" in the 11th century, I'd recommend having one character be an exorcist in the church who is tasked by a bishop or abbot to figure out what is behind weird events. I'd suggest slipping in a few hoaxes.

[Mournblade94]

Originally Posted by Andor

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the non human races. A teifling for example would need to be more human looking, but would otherwise fit right in. Merlin himself was supposed to be half-demon remember. Likewise half-elves make perfect sense as changelings. Maybe halflings are pictish woad warriors, and half-orcs as brutish viking raiders. Just shift the images 4 pts towards human and call it good.

Unfortunately when you use the non human races which are generally described along narrow lines, you lose the ability for a simulation if that is what you want. The ability gains and losses of races translate very poorly into the strength of different ethnicities. The Vikings were not quite the savages of the Half Orc (though to be fair I have never read anything in the PHB2), and certaily would not have any sort of strength boost. It would be best to treat 'tribes' with skill bonuses rather than Racial packages. The Half elf and Tieflings are great ideas. I think if you were to include them you would want some form of magic though.

Originally Posted by Jack99

Well, to be fair, the 4e/GSL tag on the thread was probably a hint towards what kind of campaign he wanted to run...

Aside from that, could you please explain to me (using logical arguments, not feelings) why an all martial 4e campaign could not feel like 11th century Europe-ish?

Simply 4e is cinematic combat and the effects are far beyond the range that could be associated with typical medieval weapons.

It is much better to have a simple abstract combat system for historical games If you are going for simulation.

4e has fewer rules for simulation outside of combat that are actually important if you WANT to illustrate a historical society and not resort to story telling rules. If all you want is a dungeon crawl in a token 11th century world then 4e is fine. If you want to explore a historical society while using the rules, you need a system better for simulation like HERO. Off the top of my head the crafting rules are one example of why 4e is not the best fit for a historical game. Weapons and resources were not widely available during this time and often it was the technology available to a nation that determined how successful they were in war and success. Adventurers in this time period should not just have weapons handed to them.

If you want to run a game that is historical in scenery only than 4e would be as good as any other system. 4e designers make no apologies that they dumped the simulation aspect out of the game.

[ferratus]

Originally Posted by Mournblade94

4e has fewer rules for simulation outside of combat that are actually important if you WANT to illustrate a historical society and not resort to story telling rules. If all you want is a dungeon crawl in a token 11th century world then 4e is fine. If you want to explore a historical society while using the rules, you need a system better for simulation like HERO.

I don't think so. The more historical you want, all you'd have to do is dial back the ready access to magic. So no NPC with rituals of curing disease or raising the dead and other access to commercially available magic. Sure some of the martial powers are a bit flashy for history, but Buffy has flashy powers too and you wouldn't say that her story isn't set in the modern world.

I would recommend making it a short campaign from levels 1-10 though.

[vagabundo]

Use the inherent bonus from the CB when building characters, this will fix the math issues and allow for some nice rare magic artefacts to be introduced.

I'd also allow - at DM discretion for each one - multiclass feats for classes in other power sources, but make them roleplay for it; I mean is they want to cast a wizards spell they will have to track down an mage to learn from and they might get some religious inquisitors on their case. Also if they start displaying miracle like powers expect some attention from nobles and the church.

I'd limit the campaign to the heroic tier, but make up some capstone feats if they want to keep playing - check out E6 on how they did something similar. I'd also rob the Name level stuff from other editions (RC/1e/2e - whatever) and allow them to build stronghold and start building a kingdom - a lot of the rules are pretty much edition neutral. Lots of scope for them becoming nobles and lots of threats from that time period.

It could be an awesome campaign, lots of scope for adventure.

[ferratus]

and they might get some religious inquisitors on their case

The episcopal inquisition didn't exist until 1148, the papal inquisition didn't exist until 1230, and the authorization and regulation of torture didn't exist until 1252. It didn't get really bad until the 16th century. Basically the more people adopted Roman Law again, the more likely it was assumed that you should be tortured to ensure accurate testimony, particularly if you were of "humble" birth.

Of course, this is the British Isles, so roman law never became very influential here, and I think at this time evidence was pretty much decided by means of 9 jurors (made up of local landowners) and your local lord passed judgment. There was also clerical courts, but you had to be a cleric to be tried in one. They were generally more lenient than secular courts.

In the 11th century if you were accused of witchcraft or baleful magic, you could pretty much get off with recanting the practice and doing penance, and you were just as likely to be fined by your local secular authority as run into trouble with your local priest or bishop. Of course, you could be executed if you were particularly recalcitrant about the practice or if you had this accusation bundled with other crimes.

Hmm... I wonder how things would be different before and after the Norman Conquest. A pertinent question given that the conquest occurred in 1066. I'm a little weak on the particulars of English history.

I do know though that you probably had legal cases in English prior to the Norman conquest, and in Latin after the Norman conquest. Having cases done in English would obviously be better if you were a Saxon peasant. I'm not sure when the right to hear cases in English again was reestablished. The system described above was Anglo-Saxon law, but I'm not sure what the court procedures of the Normans were.

[Andor]

Originally Posted by ferratus

I don't think so. The more historical you want, all you'd have to do is dial back the ready access to magic. So no NPC with rituals of curing disease or raising the dead and other access to commercially available magic. Sure some of the martial powers are a bit flashy for history, but Buffy has flashy powers too and you wouldn't say that her story isn't set in the modern world.

I would recommend making it a short campaign from levels 1-10 though.

You ignored most of what he said you know. 11th century europe is a complex place that is hard to model with a detailed yet simple system. Either an abstract system, or a more complex system would be better. As it stands 4e could be used to portray, sorta, the 11th century but it would have all the historical feel of "Robin Hood: Men in tights."

You're talking about a time and place with wildly varying levels of levels of technology and social organization, dozens of languages, dozens of competeing tribes, many of which are still pagan, hundreds of petty kingdoms constantly squabbling. In little England alone you have the Scots, the Welsh, the Angles, the Saxons, and the Normans all duking it out depending on the year.

So 4e with it's lack of craft skills and skimpy attention to languages is not the closest fit. It can be done, but it's a lot of work trying to hammer a square peg into a isocohedron shaped hole.

WRT Chritianity btw this is still the era of mystics, saints and relics. Priests would be routinely waving around saintly body parts and there was a brisk trade in such artifacts.

[ferratus]

Andor, I fail to see why any of that needs rules. Why not just let the narrative take care of it?

[Aus_Snow]

*cough* Pendragon *cough*. . . Amusingly, the fourth edition in particular of that game would be absolutely perfect, having rules as it does for magic, even for PCs (though yes, it's generally rather rare, and so on).

But anyway, back on topic, house-ruled 4e might work just fine. I mean, I've used house-ruled 3e in vaguely similar ways, so well, why not.

Perhaps there's some way of letting the odd martial character have just one or two (or so) other powers? Like, Divine, Arcane, or whatever. Multiclassing feats, is it?

Dunno, as it's not a game I play, but hey, good luck with it - and let us all know how it goes, eh?

[vagabundo]

Thanks for the history update there - my medeval history is poor/average, unfortunately; just enough to know I don't know much.

Originally Posted by ferratus

Andor, I fail to see why any of that needs rules. Why not just let the narrative take care of it?

I completely agree here. 4e has enough mechanics to simulate most of the challenges in running this setting and it is easy to house rule. The rest is setting detail and that is just a few good history books from a local library.


As to crafting I've been pondering allowing my PCs the ability to take up Background skills after 1st level, but they have to in-game time doing so. So if someone wanted to become a blacksmith they could pick that at first level - they apprenticed somewhere - or they could learn the trade by spending a couple of months training and they would need access to a forge.