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"The sorcerer-kings rule over the city-states, using their templars as their agents throughout their domains. Savage raiders make the desert wastes even more unsafe than it already is. Giants wade across the Sea of Silt, staging raids on shoreline settlements and attacking passing silt craft. The Dragon still demands tribute from each city-state, and looms over the land like a force of pure destruction. Defilers destroy life to fuel their own arcane ambitions. Merchant houses still squabble amongs themselves, and wield a great deal of power outside of the sorcerer-kings' control. Mul gladiators still fight in the slave pits, and thri-kreen scouts lurk at the edge of rarely-traveled caravan paths, waiting to strike. Halfling cannibals still stalk the night like ghosts, and untrustworthy elves still lie, cheat, and steal from their victims in the Elven Market. The Veiled Alliance provides shelter from the authorities (and from the mobs of common folk who fear and hate them) for preservers, and they still fight defilers at every step. Ancient ruins filled with undead still lie in the deep desert, holding both danger and treasures of the ancient world."
As I posted on Rodney's blog post in the comments, excellent summary of the iconic points of the setting.
Though my playful conspiracist wonders at those missing. Dwarfs (the underwhelming focus ability) and half giants (the overwhelming size) and strength? Were they excluded because they have been altered beyond what was familiar and revealing anything now is too soon?
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We burn them, leave them to die in the sun , send the dragon kings out. If wizards are out in the open it is not athas
I'm not really a DS fan, but I feel it's only fair to note that "spellcaster" does not necessarily translate to "wizard." Perhaps they're mercenary clerics earning a living by selling their elemental powers, or druids or other primal sorts doing the same? After all, the kind of idealism that would preclude or mitigate against mercenary divine or primal spellcasting is a lost thing on Athas.
Though my playful conspiracist wonders at those missing. Dwarfs (the underwhelming focus ability) and half giants (the overwhelming size) and strength? Were they excluded because they have been altered beyond what was familiar and revealing anything now is too soon?
No conspiracy theories here; they weren't intentional omissions. I just didn't cross their paths when writing my little summary.
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Yeah, that really settles a lot in my mind. I'm really excited about the setting. Wish I knew when it'd be released.
One thing I always loved about DS was the amorality of the setting. In that, a PC could be a templar, and another would be a defiler... I've played games where PCs were slaves owned by other PCs. And yet, the PCs were not really "evil" - they were just following the rules of their society. That templar and defiler, and their slave elven rogue, did all sorts of heroic acts. It was pretty cool.
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My last lingering concern is that one of the central conceits isn't exactly as valid anymore. It's only a minor thing, but it's been bothering me for a while.
When the first version of DarkSun came out, mages were the kings of D&D. High level mages clearly outclassed all other beings, and wielded forces few could even comprehend. It made sense, then, to form a world partly around the concept that mages and arcanists could, as central, powerful figures in the world, drain it of most of its life force.
4E, however, has in many ways removed the primacy of Arcane power. High level wizards are no more, or less, powerful than other high level characters or monsters. Without the previous experience under our belts of earlier editions of D&D or Darksun, the choice of Arcanists as the source of these woes might seem random and arbitrary.
Basically, in the old days the answer to the question "Why didn't someone stop those mage guys from doing this?" was obvious - they simply didn't have the raw power to do it. Today, the answer to that question is more difficult to form without resorting to fiat.
I'm not super worried about this, just putting it out there.
4E, however, has in many ways removed the primacy of Arcane power. High level wizards are no more, or less, powerful than other high level characters or monsters. Without the previous experience under our belts of earlier editions of D&D or Darksun, the choice of Arcanists as the source of these woes might seem random and arbitrary.
Basically, in the old days the answer to the question "Why didn't someone stop those mage guys from doing this?" was obvious - they simply didn't have the raw power to do it. Today, the answer to that question is more difficult to form without resorting to fiat.
You know I have been thinking about this alot too. Now in general I have faith, but It does nag at me.
It rememinds me of just how 'unfair' the scales have been in the past. Back in the 2e days I wanted to have a BBEG be a high level warrior king...around level 8 PCs totaly had him out classed (he was level 25 high level campign) and I had to start makeing up weird magic items to keep him a threat.
This then make me think of a 3.5 game that I played, where 5 warriors killed 5 mystic dragons, became immortal (ageless to be exact) and took control of the world. We were suppose to start at level 8, and work our way up to fight the weakest of them at level 17...The DM almost cryed, he drew them up as 20,22,24,25, and 27th level characters, a Ranger, 2 fighter, a rouge, and a multi classed fighter/ranger/rouge...the 8th level PCs on the other hand were a psion, a cleric, a Druid (me), a warblade/Warlock, and a Duskblade/Swordsage. we played for 2 games, leveled to 9th level, and had each gotten a hombrew artafact (I refused to use mine, I felt so bad it was way OP). Then the 5 of them showed up and we were suppose to run...The cleric pulled a will save or die spell and droped the 27th level multi class character int he first round, then me and another player had to explain that hidden in the PHB is the rule "fighters can't have nice things"...
Now 4e has one saving grace...stat them as monsters not PCs...so maybe the weakest SK is a level 27 elite, and the most powerful ones are level 32 solos...
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It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
Basically, in the old days the answer to the question "Why didn't someone stop those mage guys from doing this?" was obvious - they simply didn't have the raw power to do it. Today, the answer to that question is more difficult to form without resorting to fiat.
I'm not super worried about this, just putting it out there.
It's not difficult when you remember one of the key things about 4E: the rules of the game aren't the rules of the world. PCs are special.
Not everyone gains XP at the same rate, and the sorcerer-kings managed to rise in power much faster than anyone else, so no one could challenge them.
But why should they rise in power faster?
Thankfully, in Dark Sun there exists a mechanism to obtaining great arcane power at high cost: defiling.
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Why is it so difficult for the Wizards design team to simply say: "Race X and Y and Class Z are not found in Dark Sun?"
Playing a campaign setting with a completely different spin on things was entirely the point of embracing Dark Sun. So I think people should go into it with the understanding that they have to check a lot of things at the door. If they don't like that, then there's plenty of other settings to play! Eberron is the kitchen sink setting - Dark Sun is not, never was, and definitely should never be.
Playing dragonborn are okay if you actually modify the race to make them Dray. Along similar lines, I would allow goliaths by changing them to Half-Giants.
But devas, gnomes, tieflings, shifters, kalashtar, warforged (obviously), genasi and eladrin just don't belong in Dark Sun, sorry. It really screws with the flavor of the setting. I don't think you lose much by taking these races out, because you gain setting-unique races like the mul and, to some extent, the thri-kreen. You don't really need much beyond that.
Divine and Arcane power classes really have to be looked at closely in Dark Sun to determine if they really work. Paladins don't make any sense. Nor do sorcerors, avengers, warlocks and invokers. I would leave these classes on the cutting room floor. Let's remember here - the Dark Sun setting has NO GODS. And nearly all magic is under the control of extremely powerful sorceror kings.
Shamans and wardens become a little bit wonky but I think they're doable with some tweaking. And wizards should be divided into two specific classes - the defiler and the preserver.
I think there's actually potential for new races and classes in Dark Sun, but you have to consider, really, if they're even needed.
But devas, gnomes, tieflings, shifters, kalashtar, warforged (obviously), genasi and eladrin just don't belong in Dark Sun, sorry. It really screws with the flavor of the setting.
While I agree that limits can help define a setting, I also caution against overly-limiting the setting. The key is finding the balance and seeing how new races can be put into the setting.
And yes, gnomes must go. I will be very disappointed if they're kept in the setting.
Some of the others, though...give them a chance. Kalashtar are traditionally psions, so some reskinning might help them. Shifters just need some new background flavor and they could work as nomadic tribes of humanoids who have gone wild to survive. Genasi are elemental, so they seem natural to me.
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I don't think you lose much by taking these races out, because you gain setting-unique races like the mul and, to some extent, the thri-kreen.
Thri-kreen are interesting in that they're not specific to Dark Sun, but many people think they are because Dark Sun made them so iconic. It's kind of like the Realms and drow.
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Divine and Arcane power classes really have to be looked at closely in Dark Sun to determine if they really work. Paladins don't make any sense. Nor do sorcerors, avengers, warlocks and invokers. I would leave these classes on the cutting room floor. Let's remember here - the Dark Sun setting has NO GODS. And nearly all magic is under the control of extremely powerful sorceror kings.
Again, I caution against overly-limiting things. Dark Sun has no gods, but divine classes can draw power from a divine philosophy - something stated, yet never fully explored.
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I think there's actually potential for new races and classes in Dark Sun, but you have to consider, really, if they're even needed.
Agreed. I think the designers have an interesting challenge ahead. Yes, they're going back to the original boxed set (yay!), but they're also moving forward in a 4e framework. There will be mixed reactions amongst fans to be sure.
Based on Rodney's comments about Dark Sun being a world without gods, I think you might very well see it as a world without the divine classes. Consider this: not counting divine, the following classes are going to be available by the time this setting releases:
*Pure speculation on my part, but I bet I'm right.
Assuming that there aren't any others, that's 20(!) classes, with options for controllers (4), strikers (8!), leaders (4), and defenders (4). Even if you decide Artificers are a bad fit for Athas, that's still plenty of classes. And I think a ranged Primal Striker is a possibility. And, assuming they hold true to the past, there should be a new class introduced in the Dark Sun Player's Guide. Templar, maybe?
Now, can you make divine classes work in Athas? I suppose. But are they, strictly speaking, necessary for variety? Clearly not.
Last edited by JohnSnow; 25th October 2009 at 07:47 PM..
Reason: Remembered that Seeker is a Controller, so edited final numbers accordingly.
And, assuming they hold true to the past, there should be a new class introduced in the Dark Sun Player's Guide. Templar, maybe?
WotC has said it won't be doing a new class for Dark Sun, though it sounds as if there will be some nifty new options.
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Now, can you make divine classes work in Athas? I suppose. But are they, strictly speaking, necessary for variety? Clearly not.
The inclusion of roles in the game really allows for setting customization. No longer is the cleric necessary as we have other leader types to fill that role. The cool part is that you can drop an entire power source if it doesn't fit your setting and be okay.
My hope is that, after seeing inclusive worlds like the Realms and Eberron, they will explore how excluding some elements from a setting can add to the flavor.
WotC has said it won't be doing a new class for Dark Sun, though it sounds as if there will be some nifty new options.
The inclusion of roles in the game really allows for setting customization. No longer is the cleric necessary as we have other leader types to fill that role. The cool part is that you can drop an entire power source if it doesn't fit your setting and be okay.
My hope is that, after seeing inclusive worlds like the Realms and Eberron, they will explore how excluding some elements from a setting can add to the flavor.
Ah, no new class. Didn't realize that. I guess I missed that commentary.
On the subject of dropping an entire power source, (lead Dark Sun designer) Rodney "Moridin" Thompson said something similar on his blog about running a Dark Sun adventure. I wonder if we can take that as a more definitive "hint."
Why is it so difficult for the Wizards design team to simply say: "Race X and Y and Class Z are not found in Dark Sun?"
B/c they did that in 2E and it didn't sell well. 4E is all about opening possibilities, not saying no.
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Originally Posted by Failed Saving Throw
Playing a campaign setting with a completely different spin on things was entirely the point of embracing Dark Sun. So I think people should go into it with the understanding that they have to check a lot of things at the door.
You can have a different spin on things and still allow races and classes. They have already said some of these races and such will be listed as pretty rare.
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Originally Posted by Failed Saving Throw
Playing dragonborn are okay if you actually modify the race to make them Dray. Along similar lines, I would allow goliaths by changing them to Half-Giants.
But devas, gnomes, tieflings, shifters, kalashtar, warforged (obviously), genasi and eladrin just don't belong in Dark Sun, sorry. It really screws with the flavor of the setting.
Someone talked in another DS thread about the idea of Warforged crafted from stone and bone and such. Would be a very DS spin on Warforged and IMO sounds pretty darn cool. People are also quick to bring up the tower that mutates things that come near it, so rare/unique race examples wandering out of the desert is par for the course.
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Originally Posted by Failed Saving Throw
And wizards should be divided into two specific classes - the defiler and the preserver.
Defilers and Preservers in 2E cast all the same spells, the only difference was if they caused environmental damage or not, plus the faster leveling for Defilers. 2 different classes are not needed. Bonus feat if you decide to be a Preserver that allows you to not destroy the environment. Or just say all Arcane casters inherently destroy the environment and you have to spend a feat to gain Preserving.
Defilers were only a seperate class in the original boxed set; the revision lumped them together, and made the choice of whether to defile or preserve up to the PC. (the more you defile, though, the harder it is to stop).
The revision also got rid of specialty wizards (they were there in the original setting).
I prefer the original, simpler take of the original set, in regards to 2e. But I think the revised setup would actually work better for fourth edition. Grant a flat bonus for defiling, and leave it at that - if you defile, you get a mechanical benefit, but also suffer in that your casting is more overt.
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But devas, gnomes, tieflings, shifters, kalashtar, warforged (obviously), genasi and eladrin just don't belong in Dark Sun, sorry. It really screws with the flavor of the setting.
Dwarves with beards screw with the flavor of the setting. Elves living in forests screw with the flavor of the setting.
And they aren't in Dark Sun despite those being the core representation of those races.
Your reflexive opposition seems to be based on those races being placed on Athas "as is". Why do you assume any of those races would be "as is"? Can you not imagine some interesting twist upon any of those races to make them fit? I can for every single one, except gnomes. Gnomes were exterminated and deserve to stay that way.
Here is some fluff I came up with to get deva to fit Athas.
As a consequence of the primordials victory, the Gray envelopes Athas cutting off the flow of souls to the realms of the gods. But there was one temple village devoted to a good god whose followers fought against the armies of the Champions of Rajaat; they were distraught at the thought of never achieving an afterlife but dissolving into nothingness. The followers were hopeful that their gods lack of communication doesn't mean their god is dead, but just cut off and will contact them again some day. Know that waiting for their god to return, every day their souls would dissolve into the Gray when they died, they perform an epic ritual that would defy the fate the Gray so that they would be there when their god returned.
As a consequence of the ritual, upon death, any soul a person from this temple village would avoid the Gray and instead reincarnate at a site holy to their faith. With the ritual in place, none of the affected followers can have children. With each reincarnation, memories of their past become dimmer and dimmer.
Calling themselves devas, today, their numbers had ever been few, and fewer yet have any remaining memory of where the original temple village was or if any devas still live there. After centuries of reincarnations, most devas consider themselves trapped in an unending cycle, cursed by memories of a naïve past that couldn't have imagined living in a world they are doomed to live in today. Many are resentful of their past, the decisions of those who doomed them to this eternal life, and resentful of those who are not cursed to relive life on Athas over and over.
While some devas have been broken and follow paths like defiling, seeking to destroy everything they can grasp, other devas have overcome the overwhelming burden of their memories and pursue paths of druidism to caretake the planet for future reincarnations.
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There's the Villichi, though they were introduced as a reclusive all-female race in Dark Sun, chances are they could be retconned into being the Devas.
And there's the humanoids of the Elemental Planes known as the Ruvkova, they sound a lot like Genasi to me.
Your reflexive opposition seems to be based on those races being placed on Athas "as is". Why do you assume any of those races would be "as is"? Can you not imagine some interesting twist upon any of those races to make them fit? I can for every single one, except gnomes. Gnomes were exterminated and deserve to stay that way.
Really, it's a lack of faith in WoTC's writers to do races and classes in a way that correctly presents the original atmosphere of the Athas. It's too easy to simply include all 4E races and classes in Dark Sun by just playing some kind of opposite game with them. That was never what Dark Sun was about. The races that were included were the way they were for a specific reason. Personally I think it's more interesting to have races that have been wiped out rather than reduce a few of them to "small pockets here and there that have changed a bit but still carry on." Why bother?
My last lingering concern is that one of the central conceits isn't exactly as valid anymore. It's only a minor thing, but it's been bothering me for a while.
When the first version of DarkSun came out, mages were the kings of D&D. High level mages clearly outclassed all other beings, and wielded forces few could even comprehend. It made sense, then, to form a world partly around the concept that mages and arcanists could, as central, powerful figures in the world, drain it of most of its life force.
4E, however, has in many ways removed the primacy of Arcane power. High level wizards are no more, or less, powerful than other high level characters or monsters. Without the previous experience under our belts of earlier editions of D&D or Darksun, the choice of Arcanists as the source of these woes might seem random and arbitrary.
Basically, in the old days the answer to the question "Why didn't someone stop those mage guys from doing this?" was obvious - they simply didn't have the raw power to do it. Today, the answer to that question is more difficult to form without resorting to fiat.
I'm not super worried about this, just putting it out there.
All they need to be more powerful is to have a higher level. Even before 4E, a spellcaster was only really more powerful than non-spellcasters at higher levels.
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How character X of level N is finally about equal in personal power to character Y also of level N regardless of the values of X and Y is a good thing.
As a consequence of the primordials victory, the Gray envelopes Athas cutting off the flow of souls to the realms of the gods. But there was one temple village devoted to a good god whose followers fought against the armies of the Champions of Rajaat; they were distraught at the thought of never achieving an afterlife but dissolving into nothingness. The followers were hopeful that their gods lack of communication doesn't mean their god is dead, but just cut off and will contact them again some day. Know that waiting for their god to return, every day their souls would dissolve into the Gray when they died, they perform an epic ritual that would defy the fate the Gray so that they would be there when their god returned.
As a consequence of the ritual, upon death, any soul a person from this temple village would avoid the Gray and instead reincarnate at a site holy to their faith. With the ritual in place, none of the affected followers can have children. With each reincarnation, memories of their past become dimmer and dimmer.
Calling themselves devas, today, their numbers had ever been few, and fewer yet have any remaining memory of where the original temple village was or if any devas still live there. After centuries of reincarnations, most devas consider themselves trapped in an unending cycle, cursed by memories of a naïve past that couldn't have imagined living in a world they are doomed to live in today. Many are resentful of their past, the decisions of those who doomed them to this eternal life, and resentful of those who are not cursed to relive life on Athas over and over.
While some devas have been broken and follow paths like defiling, seeking to destroy everything they can grasp, other devas have overcome the overwhelming burden of their memories and pursue paths of druidism to caretake the planet for future reincarnations.
That's an awesome take on Devas. I love the bitterness. That's the essence of Dark Sun.
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