4e / GSL More Dark Sun Goodness

[Dragonhelm]

Originally Posted by Storminator

That's an awesome take on Devas. I love the bitterness. That's the essence of Dark Sun.

That, and it ties into topics that are relevant in today's society, namely taking care of the world for future generations. Some of the best fiction has real world tie-ins put in the framework of the fantasy setting.

[Eric Anondson]

Originally Posted by Storminator

That's an awesome take on Devas. I love the bitterness. That's the essence of Dark Sun.

Thanks! It really began as a devil's advocate exercise. I was pleased with the result.

Originally, I was reflexively against devas, but when I read someone else's take on warforged for Dark Sun that made me a believer that warforged could fit Athas with the right reflavoring . . . I just had to give devas try with the thought in mind "what would it take to get me to let these in and not change the mechanics of the race in any way".

[amysrevenge]

Originally Posted by CapnZapp

What Ridcully said.

How character X of level N is finally about equal in personal power to character Y also of level N regardless of the values of X and Y is a good thing.

Of course it is.

It just makes the old-school version of Athas history a bit less easy to swallow (unless you embrace the NPCs are not following PC rules philosophy, which certainly solves many problems).

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by amysrevenge

Of course it is.

It just makes the old-school version of Athas history a bit less easy to swallow (unless you embrace the NPCs are not following PC rules philosophy, which certainly solves many problems).

Just because equal level NPCs and PCs are also of equal power doesn't mean that it's impossible for one group of NPCs to win over alternative groups. The Sorcerer Kings might have used smarter tactics and politics to move themselves into a position to dominate Athas and eradicate any equal level foes. Level is only one part of the power equation. It wasn't merely "raw" power, but it was also tactics, politics and numbers.

Also, Rituals might be meaningless for individual one-on-one combats, but they are important for long-term strategies. Sorcerer-Kings always will have an easier access to this type of magic than Warrior-Kings. By RAW (ignoring PC != NPC) PC Wizards for example get Ritual Casting for free. Also, mostly magical characters need the ability scores that also help with all kind of ritual related skill checks.

[vagabundo]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Also, Rituals might be meaningless for individual one-on-one combats, but they are important for long-term strategies. Sorcerer-Kings always will have an easier access to this type of magic than Warrior-Kings. By RAW (ignoring PC != NPC) PC Wizards for example get Ritual Casting for free. Also, mostly magical characters need the ability scores that also help with all kind of ritual related skill checks.

Sure even ignoring the PC!=NPC, an NPC wizard will, usually, have a much higher arcane skill that in of itself is enough to tip the balance, when it come to rituals casting anyway.

[Silverblade The Ench]

a) Woot, yes, designers who preffer the original boxed set and mystery deserve much fluffy non-tarrasque bunny luv!
Veyr happy to hear the core original is the template, not what came after

b) Well, if you mix what Kobold Avenger and Eric said, why not have the vilichii as the Devas? solves that issue. hey maybe there are male vilichii but just weren't known about before?

c) That take on the dray/dragonborn works for me
Dark SUn is jsut so damn weird that fitting races/classes in is not really a problem most of the time, for me, it's just sorting out the flavour of them not the mechanics, and in a world so damn "raw", riddled with corrovie magic, and brutal darwinism, well...just about anything could evolve, mutate or be made out in the wastes or in the "Making pits" of the sorceror kings, or through the will of defilers or psionicists...

I tend ot think Hamanu would have major programs o create more "war creatures" didn't he have giant undead war beetle seige weapon platforms, for example?

[Andor]

Originally Posted by Failed Saving Throw

Really, it's a lack of faith in WoTC's writers to do races and classes in a way that correctly presents the original atmosphere of the Athas. It's too easy to simply include all 4E races and classes in Dark Sun by just playing some kind of opposite game with them. That was never what Dark Sun was about. The races that were included were the way they were for a specific reason. Personally I think it's more interesting to have races that have been wiped out rather than reduce a few of them to "small pockets here and there that have changed a bit but still carry on." Why bother?

Pathos. Dark Sun is all about life sucking like a black hole. Being one of the few remaining members of a dying species is darker than being one of many member of a (relatively) successful species.

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Failed Saving Throw

Why is it so difficult for the Wizards design team to simply say: "Race X and Y and Class Z are not found in Dark Sun?"

I think this ground has been covered a lot in every other thread on the topic. But, to restate my own thoughts...

(1) You will never see a 4e book which says "You must not play a Gnome." Instead, I'd expect something like, "Everyone believes gnomes are extinct on Athas. You are probably the only one. Think carefully before including a gnome, because a sorcerer-king will probably get that ol' genocidal feeling. Also, come up with a reason."

(2) The list of races in Athas was mostly the list of races in the 2e PHB, minus gnomes and half-orcs, and plus a few others. What was important, in my mind, wasn't what was there vs. not-there - it's how they were done. The DS races are the PHB races, only more metal. Also, unless it's been rectonned too, you have the Pristine Tower shooting out new races like they're going out of business. What's important to me is that the existing races are handled in a Dark Sun fashion - not that tons of races are unplayable. You can make Warforged fit. You can make devas fit, as discussed above. What you can't do is just drop a woodsy elf into the setting with too many vowels in his name.

-O