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No, he's just that strong. Its his Str stat, creatively used, nothing more.
When he's swinging a Harley Davidson like a baseball bat, its just an improvised weapon.
And I think there shows the divide between the game creation styles.
In your eyes (I think?) you seem to see making spider man requires his STR to be always a super high number so he can lift a car or whatever whenever he wants.
In my eyes, this isn't needed, since in the comics we don't constantly see him lifting cars and what not- It might be implied that this is his constant level of strength, but it's only shown when the author feels it appropriate.
So I would make it a power that the player can choose to use up when he feels it appropriate, and just imply that he's that strong whenever he wants (even though it's a power that can't be used ALL the time.)
I understand where you're coming from, but it's just not my style of game. I feel when the power is "always" usable it tends to be used all the time, and it kind of pulls me out of the imagination zone.
(And also makes the game part of the game a lot less fun for me.)
Actually thinking about it, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying Danny...
I think it could just be the strength score, since the D&D STR stat can be boosted pretty high in character creation. (And a high STR in D&D can lift some pretty crazy stuff.)
And I think there shows the divide between the game creation styles.
In your eyes (I think?) you seem to see making spider man requires his STR to be always a super high number so he can lift a car or whatever whenever he wants.
In my eyes, this isn't needed, since in the comics we don't constantly see him lifting cars and what not- It might be implied that this is his constant level of strength, but it's only shown when the author feels it appropriate.
So I would make it a power that the player can choose to use up when he feels it appropriate, and just imply that he's that strong whenever he wants (even though it's a power that can't be used ALL the time.)
I understand where you're coming from, but it's just not my style of game. I feel when the power is "always" usable it tends to be used all the time, and it kind of pulls me out of the imagination zone.
(And also makes the game part of the game a lot less fun for me.)
Then what is the point of having a Str stat at all if not to show how strong a PC is at any given moment?
Spidey's strength isn't just shown in combat when he tosses a cycle around, but also when he catches debris from a building struck in a fight, or thrown projectiles from other similarly strong characters, when he casually crushes something (like a camera to conceal his identity), rescuing a falling bystander, or even when he jumps 30' backwards and up.
He uses his strength all the time- in virtually every issue- he just doesn't always us it to attack.
To me, if Spidey has any 4Ed style powers related to his strength, it would be when he pushes it beyond what we think of as his limits- such as catching or redirecting an 8 ton delivery truck as opposed to catching/throwing an 800lb motorcycle.
When he tries something like that, its exhausting and dangerous- THAT sounds like a daily or the like- some kind of push to his abilities could legitimately be considered a type of 4Ed power.
Then what is the point of having a Str stat at all if not to show how strong a PC is at any given moment?
Spidey's strength isn't just shown in combat when he tosses a cycle around, but also when he catches debris from a building struck in a fight, or thrown projectiles from other similarly strong characters, when he casually crushes something (like a camera to conceal his identity), rescuing a falling bystander, or even when he jumps 30' backwards and up.
He uses his strength all the time- in virtually every issue- he just doesn't always us it to attack.
To me, if Spidey has any 4Ed style powers related to his strength, it would be when he pushes it beyond what we think of as his limits- such as catching or redirecting an 8 ton delivery truck as opposed to catching/throwing an 800lb motorcycle.
Well- see my amendment above, so yeah if we just wanted to give him a high STR with the current D&D style rules that would probably work.
I think you're right- for this one I'd probably just make his strength high to begin with, and let him do other stuff using his powers and STR combined. Like maybe he can use a power that lets him do a blast push attack or something with a motorcycle in addition to damage.
Actually thinking about it, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying Danny...
I think it could just be the strength score, since the D&D STR stat can be boosted pretty high in character creation. (And a high STR in D&D can lift some pretty crazy stuff.)
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I think you're right- for this one I'd probably just make his strength high to begin with, and let him do other stuff using his powers and STR combined. Like maybe he can use a power that lets him do a blast push attack or something with a motorcycle in addition to damage.
I think we're on the same page.
Here, the motorcycle becomes the [W] in the attack power's formula.
Of course, not even close to as high as guys like the Thing or the Hulk...
Now...the Hulk's upward cascading Str based on his anger might be a bit harder to model- its a Rage with no upper limits.
Green Lantern (the Hal Jordan/Guardians of Oa ones) would also present problems- those rings are essentially artifacts, no matter how you look at them. Their only limits are 1) the user's willpower, 2) the 24 hour charge, 3) the color yellow (or maybe not, depending upon which stories you read) and 4) the remote possibility that you might lose the thing. IOW, essentially, they grant virtually limitless power at will- not too easy to emulate in 4Ed.
Of course, not even close to as high as guys like the Thing or the Hulk...
Now...the Hulk's upward cascading Str based on his anger might be a bit harder to model- its a Rage with no upper limits.
Green Lantern (the Hal Jordan/Guardians of Oa ones) would also present problems- those rings are essentially artifacts, no matter how you look at them. Their only limits are 1) the user's willpower, 2) the 24 hour charge, 3) the color yellow (or maybe not, depending upon which stories you read) and 4) the remote possibility that you might lose the thing. IOW, essentially, they grant virtually limitless power at will- not too easy to emulate in 4Ed.
Epic level characters, with epic level artifacts?
I don't actually know enough about GL to really be comfortable in saying much for sure. :P
I mean I guess you could make it an artifact that also grows with the users level (sort of link that to the idea of users willpower.)
Grants some extra at -wills and some other stuff.
Also one thing I think people forget is that anytime you go from Comic- game, there's going to have to be SOME differences... I mean in comics just like all books/movies etc, the hero either just IS or suddenly becomes, what would be considered a "high level" character in a game. Very rarely do we ever witness the hero gaining levels like in a game.
Usually it's the equivalent of the DM saying the campaign starts at like 10th level, and the players instead of describing their growth period, just said he was instantly this powerful.
I don't actually know enough about GL to really be comfortable in saying much for sure. :P
I mean I guess you could make it an artifact that also grows with the users level (sort of link that to the idea of users willpower.)
Grants some extra at -wills and some other stuff.
You could, but I think that characters like the Hulk, GL and other high-power types are just so far out there that they just aren't suited for a 4Ed type treatment. I mean, what about the Flash's ability to run FTL...or break the time barrier? Or the (pre-movies version of) Superman who could move planets and dive into the sun?
Even open systems like M&M or HERO don't handle those guys well. A less flexible system like 4Ed would just go *TILT*.
You could, but I think that characters like the Hulk, GL and other high-power types are just so far out there that they just aren't suited for a 4Ed type treatment. I mean, what about the Flash's ability to run FTL...or break the time barrier? Or the (pre-movies version of) Superman who could move planets and dive into the sun?
Even open systems like M&M or HERO don't handle those guys well. A less flexible system like 4Ed would just go *TILT*.
Again I think it's just a level thing.
I think like all games you have to figure out a base level range you want the game to handle and go from there...
A superman able to fly into the sun should probably be very high epic level or more then likely an "NPC God" or a wrath of the imortals style god level game system.
If you wanted a game that does super heros, with the ability to at some point gain the power level of superman, 4e can do it just fine.
Maybe start out with a Smallville type thing... Every level is your version of superman learning he can "do what now???"
But sure if you want to be able to create a character that at 1st level can dive into the sun... Maybe 4e isn't the system to use... Maybe Rifts?
As for the flash, I think those abilities are great for 4e style powers. The ability to run through walls, can be a form of Teleportation, or phasing. Travel through time, would be great for gaining a bonus on your enemy, or an extra action or something.
I was assuming Spider-Man would probably need a fairly high Str score even without bringing powers into it. The question is: how do you put Spidey on a much higher point buy than the Human Torch? The basic chassis to the 4e game is equivalency across classes, roles, and races. He probably only needs a 40 Str or so plus some utilities, but the Human Torch doesn't have that.
Maybe his Str is only 20 and he has multiple copies of a feat that doubles his lifting capacity or something. But he does need to be able to:
- Consistently do more damage than a normal person, even a strong normal person, even to the point of bending and denting metal
- Be able to lift the weight of a human with ease, as he can perform acrobatics while carrying people
- Hurl large objects
- Occasionally perform really amazing feats of strength
I think like all games you have to figure out a base level range you want the game to handle and go from there...
While that's true, with supers games, the further you get from that base level, the less balanced the game gets.
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A superman able to fly into the sun should probably be very high epic level or more then likely an "NPC God" or a wrath of the imortals style god level game system.
If you wanted a game that does super heros, with the ability to at some point gain the power level of superman, 4e can do it just fine.
Maybe start out with a Smallville type thing... Every level is your version of superman learning he can "do what now???"
Well, with Supes, after about the first 100 issues, it was less about learning what powers he had and more about learning exactly how powerful those abilities were. Essentially, the teenaged Superboy of Smallville and the Legion of Superheroes was nearly as powerful as the adult...he just didn't know what his limitations were. And he had company (as an adult or as a teen) in the form of similarly powerful characters like Mon-El, Ultra-Boy, the Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel (and the whole Shazam crew), Captain Thunder, Wonder Woman and the other surviving Kryptonians (Supergirl, Power Girl, the Kandorians, etc.).
(FWIW, Supes has had varying power levels over the 60 some years of the character, some of which are just shy of godlike in power.)
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But sure if you want to be able to create a character that at 1st level can dive into the sun... Maybe 4e isn't the system to use... Maybe Rifts?
RIFTS/Heroes Unlimited, for all their wonkiness, don't really support Superman-type PCs. IMHO, M&M and HERO handle them best, and even they don't do it well.
While that's true, with supers games, the further you get from that base level, the less balanced the game gets.
Not sure if I agree with that.
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Well, with Supes, after about the first 100 issues, it was less about learning what powers he had and more about learning exactly how powerful those abilities were. Essentially, the teenaged Superboy of Smallville and the Legion of Superheroes was nearly as powerful as the adult...he just didn't know what his limitations were.
Shrug- to me that's just a narrative thing in game to explain levels. Instead of you actually gaining power, you're gaining the knowledge of how powerful your powers actually are. Either way in the game itself it works out to be the same thing, as you gain levels your character gets more powerful.
RIFTS/Heroes Unlimited, for all their wonkiness, don't really support Superman-type PCs.
It will, however, allow you to play a character with Invulnerability who can survive diving into the Sun.
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IMHO, M&M and HERO handle them best, and even they don't do it well.
If you want to go really cosmic, your only real choices, IMO, are DC Heroes, or Silver Age Sentinels with the lid popped off. DC Heroes 3e will do it right out of the box, with the price that characters with fairly close abilities will find small differences are indeed small. With SAS, you can use varying dice or difficulties to scale tasks to "cosmic scale," and you can set upper bounds on abilities wherever you need to.
Hero can comfortable handle many what would be considered X Traits in M&M. M&M can only just handle the Green Lantern.
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