4e / GSL Can we have a 4e variant of M&M or something like it?

[GMforPowergamers]

OK, so I read the following and forked it:

Originally Posted by awesomeocalypse

In my opinion, encounter powers are one of the most narrative-driven aspect of the game, because they correspond so well to so much of the sort of fiction and pop culture that I use to inspire my stories (not necessarily directly in terms of setting elements or plot points, but often thematically), like fantasy and scifi novels, shows and movies, anime and comic books.

Those types of fiction overflow with terrific heroes who can do tons of amazing stuff....but who often tend to only do their cooler stuff pretty rarely, and otherwise default to a few basic moves.

Superman is the prime example of this. He has a huge assortment of powers which he can theoretically use at will and which when used to full capacity should render 95% of his enemies non-threats. For example, his upper level speed showings alone in the comics put him at much, much higher than the speed of light, which when combined with planet busting strength means he could easily throw nearly any enemy into space before it could think.

But that isn't how Superman actually fights as the story unfolds. If he's going to do something really high-end, he'll do it once a story. If he's going to use heat vision or freeze breath or x-ray vision or any of his other more esoteric powers, he'll probably do so just once or at most twice per a 22 page. comic. The rest of the time, he's mostly a fast and really strong guy who can fly and punches damn hard.

To me, that sounds a lot like how an encounter will function--the "throw them into space" move is his daily, the heat vision and freeze breath are encounters, and the superstrength is at will.

Other serialized formats are often similar. Take an ongoing, combat-heavy story like Berserk or Rurouni Kenshin. Gatts has his arm cannon, his crazy-ass armor, and a load of crazy techniques. But he never just spams any one of them, except for his basic deadly swordsmanship--his attacks get used roughly in inverse proportion to how powerfully they are. Kenshin knows a million crazy techniques, but never uses any but the most basic few more than once per fight, and has a few he only ever uses a few times in the entire series--again, the more rarely used the power, the better it is.

Sometimes there is a good simulationist reason for why the characters don't just spam the techniques--they require a direct and explicit investment of power or some other resource that renders them difficult to repeat at will. But often that justification is flimsy to non-existent--logically, Superman really would throw a lot more giant monsters into space than he does.

But regardless of whether there is a good simulationist reason (and honestly, for some characters like the Flash or Martian Manhunter, there is virtually never a good simulationist reason because their powers are just that uber), there is always a good narrative reason, and that is that Superman constantly flinging everyone into space at the speed of light doesn't make for a good story. And sure, sometimes he just fights enemy that can fly and breathe in space and its a non issue--but maybe that flying-space-breather makes no sense for a certain story, and you don't want to waste a ton of page space on fanwanking reasons for Superman not to instawin every time, so he conveniently "forgets" to operate below full capacity, or you say he held back out of some wierd moral principle, even though it mostly resulted in him having to struggle way more with the fight than he "realistically" should have--but in a way that was probably more fun to read about then the "realistic" fight would have been.

And by the same token, moves get less cool the more you see of them--so if you want a move to seem special, the hero shouldn't use it all the time. Gatts busting out the arm cannon once a fight is badass--Gatts camping out in a tree and cannonballing dudes all fight every fight, not so much.

Balance is a narrativist concern as well as a gamist one, and fiction abounds with stories that prioritize balance over simulationism for the sake of the story. That doesn't mean they always have to be at odds, but its a fallacy to pretend that simulationism=narrativism

In my opinion, encounter powers and daily powers are 100% narrativist. The heroes use their coolest powers more rarely because that makes for a cooler story--the powers remain cool, and the fights are as challenging as the story needs them to be.

Imagin the Base M&M system, but with 4e powers or types of powers grafted on...Superman and Green Lantern with enconter and daily powers...

I would actualy think the PSion play test would be our best bet...more at wills that can augment, and enconter powers and daily powers (Yes I know the psion doesn't have encounters but I think it can work)...

is it possible? can anyone one else see where I am going with this...maybe 4-7 base 'classes' like in City of heros...Blaster, Tank, Controler...maybe a the monster roles would be best actualy...
then have a bunch of generic powers, and when you chose a 'power source' (not martial/arcane only, but mutant, and alein) it all comes togather...

[Henrix]

I definitely think you could have a good superhero system based on the same tenets as 4e.

However I do not think it is allowed under the GSL, so you'd have to start from scratch and reverse engineer the system.

[GMforPowergamers]

OK, I gave it a little more thought...

Take the base 4e level set up but with everyone human (a slightly higher point buy (maybe 2-4pts higher), everyone gets +2 to any one stat, and +1 all NADS, a 3rd at will and a 2nd feat). Then you choose the following

Power Source: Mutant, Alien, Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal, Psionic, ect
Role: artillery, brute, controller, lurker, skirmisher, and soldier
Theme: Radation, spider, paragon, detective, legend, mystic, ect

and these each give class features and skills, along with what special powers each unlocks...but for the most part powers are one big group of picks...



Next is the powers have min levels, but like psion augments they can get better.... but maybe you have X power points per encounter and can only spend them on at will and encounter powers...

maybe if we just go with the NADS we can even forgo AC as a defence...

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Henrix

I definitely think you could have a good superhero system based on the same tenets as 4e.

However I do not think it is allowed under the GSL, so you'd have to start from scratch and reverse engineer the system.

well It would not be something I would put togather to sell myself...although pitching it to WotC as a spin off game may not be a bad idea...

and with very little work a RPG designer could file off the seriel numbers and make there ow system based on it anyway...

[Dannyalcatraz]

Imagin the Base M&M system, but with 4e powers or types of powers grafted on...Superman and Green Lantern with enconter and daily powers...

While I think you might be able to do a certain kind of superheroic game based on 4Ed design principles, I don't think it would fit most classic superheroic tropes.

Most supers tend to have powers they can use at will. Almost everything Superman can do, he can do at any time, unless prevented by one of his weaknesses. Ditto most of DC's or Marvel's stables of characters.

Are there exceptions? Of course, usually in the form of the "Super Training" or "Martial Artist" or "Super Detective" archetypes- Batman, Green Arrow, Hawkeye. But even those guys typically have abilities that would be defined as at wills in a 4Ed design regime. The only thing that stops Capt. America from throwing his shield all the time is the tactical situation. Sometimes, he actually uses it for defense, after all, or the foes wise up and take cover.

Ironically, one of the places you could find that kind of campaign/design style would be in Palladium's Heroes Unlimited. The PCs in that game tend to be a bit more limited and focused than is typical of many superheroic worlds.

[pawsplay]

So how often would Spider-Man be able to lift several tons?

[SilvercatMoonpaw2]

I think "stuff you don't do more than once an adventure" is supposed to be covered in M&M using the Power Stunt rules. If you want to encourage this over having the power inherently reduce the pp at character creation and hand out more Hero Points per adventure.

I don't think M&M at default is intended for realistic tactical use of character abilities.

[Mallus]

I like 4e. I love M&M. But they're two great tastes that taste great... apart.

[ExploderWizard]

It already exists. 4E IS a superhero game. Just change the costumes on the heroes to spandex and the fluff on the powers and you are done.

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

4E IS a superhero game.

Heh... our 4e party sometimes goes by the name the "Just-Us League".

But seriously, 4e is a superhero game if mean 3rd-string Marvel mutants or the likes of Mockingbird. If you're looking for high-end superheroics like Green Lantern, you need play a previous edition of D&D, with their super-powerful magic spells.

It isn't that 4e isn't a supers game, it's that 1e-3e are more so.

[Storminator]

Originally Posted by Mallus

I like 4e. I love M&M. But they're two great tastes that taste great... apart.

I agree with this completely. I don't ever want to play 3e again, but I play M&M all the time. I think 4e is too stiff to do what I want from a superheros game. The A#1 thing M&M has going for it is the Hero Point+Alternate Power combo, which doesn't map into 4e's defined power structure.

That said, more power to ya! If you can make it work for you, do it.

PS

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw2

I think "stuff you don't do more than once an adventure" is supposed to be covered in M&M using the Power Stunt rules. If you want to encourage this over having the power inherently reduce the pp at character creation and hand out more Hero Points per adventure.

I don't think M&M at default is intended for realistic tactical use of character abilities.

By default, M&M is not doctrinal about what kinds of things are allowed.

[tyrlaan]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

Power Source: Mutant, Alien, Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal, Psionic, ect
Role: artillery, brute, controller, lurker, skirmisher, and soldier
Theme: Radation, spider, paragon, detective, legend, mystic, ect

and these each give class features and skills, along with what special powers each unlocks...but for the most part powers are one big group of picks...

Next is the powers have min levels, but like psion augments they can get better.... but maybe you have X power points per encounter and can only spend them on at will and encounter powers...

maybe if we just go with the NADS we can even forgo AC as a defence...

I'd actually take Theme and roll it up into power source. But otherwise, I think that's definitely the foundation for a 4e supers ruleset.

For powers, I think you'd really need to put in the elbow grease and flesh out how to build powers from rules nuggets. Want a power that does XdY to one target at range 10 and pushes them STAT squares? Okay that's 2 points for die type Y + 3 pts for X dice + 1 pt for range 10 + 2 pts for the push. 8pt power. Encounter is -1 pt, daily is -2pts then just assign it to a level based on total cost.

Okay, I just threw some very random numbers out there, but I think this kind of work would be needed to meet the needs of the typical expectations for a supers game. The alternative is something far more restrictive than I think folks are used to for a supers game.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

So how often would Spider-Man be able to lift several tons?

That would depend on your definition of "several tons."

According to Marvel Universe, the current incarnation of Spidey can "optimally lift 10 tons," and we've seen him toss motorcycles around- as in catch/throw them like balls or weapons- in previous decades.

And that's without any of the special storylines in which his strength gets boosted.

[DEFCON 1]

4E can easily be turned into a superhero game... and it's not even something you need to do a major overhaul to. It's all a matter of just re-fluffing everything. Select a race, select a class, select the powers, skills and feats that are most aligned to abilities your hero would have, and then just change any names or keywords you need to to make it fit your theme.

After all... when stripped away of all fluff, 4E is basically just rolling an attack against a defense, and/or moving yourself or allies around the battlefield, and slowing, immobilizing, and stunning them until they are knocked out.

Pretty much any superhero archetype can be created just by selecting the race and class that give you the most abilities that fall into your archetype. Human Torch? He's a ranged blaster. Choose tiefling to get the basic fire resistance like the Torch should have... then start selecting sorcerer powers that cause single target and group damage, and give all of them the 'fire' keyword. Simple.

For Iron Man you'd want a high-AC defender who can attack both in melee and range... so use the paladin and select the right ranged powers to represent his repulsor blasts in various configurations, use plate mail and shield to represent his high AC, so on and so forth.

Wolverine would be a brutal scoundral rogue, Hulk would be barbarian with a low-prof / high-crit weapon (probably great or execution axe) to represent the less controlled, but extremely high damage of his fist attacks.

The biggest thing is just making sure that whatever the players select for abilities, they can be rationalized into the theme of the hero they have chosen. So for instance a power that can pull or push your enemies might work for those heroes that can hit really hard and cause knockback, or someone like Spider-Man who can hit them with his webbing and yank them towards him... but not necessarily chosen by someone like Nightcrawler, whose offensive attacks are really usually just his rapier. It's a fine line, but one that can probably work if the players really want to try to play the tactical battlemat combat of 4E, but placed into a different genre and setting.

[Scribble]

A freind of mine from back east was running a 4e based super heroes game. Supposedly it was doing pretty well.

[Barastrondo]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

So how often would Spider-Man be able to lift several tons?

I admit I don't read it these days, but back when I was a kid the answer seemed to be "once every several issues," optimally with some complicated thought balloons on how difficult it was and how he was pushing himself to the very limit.

Probably depends on the writer, though. Some writers approach things like that with the feeling of "if he did it once, he should be able to do it pretty much whenever he wants," and that suits some gaming styles better.

[GMforPowergamers]

Originally Posted by Barastrondo

I admit I don't read it these days, but back when I was a kid the answer seemed to be "once every several issues," optimally with some complicated thought balloons on how difficult it was and how he was pushing himself to the very limit.

Probably depends on the writer, though. Some writers approach things like that with the feeling of "if he did it once, he should be able to do it pretty much whenever he wants," and that suits some gaming styles better.

I would probly say the 'throw a bike/small car' is a daily power for mr parker... wall climbing an at will utilitie, and web attack an at will attack...

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers

I would probly say the 'throw a bike/small car' is a daily power for mr parker... wall climbing an at will utilitie, and web attack an at will attack...

(emphasis mine)
I can't agree with the bolded part- he does it too often for it to be a daily.

By that I mean, using his strength so overtly is not part of his usual attack/defense pattern, but when he does it, he does it A LOT.

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

(emphasis mine)
I can't agree with the bolded part- he does it too often for it to be a daily.

By that I mean, using his strength so overtly is not part of his usual attack/defense pattern, but when he does it, he does it A LOT.

Utility power?