3e / OGL How should we determine attributes?

[Crothian]

I'm starting up a new game come December and the players are currently working on their characters. I encourage them to create a character without mechanics first and then do the character sheet last. It's worked well for us in the past. Soon though they will be doing that and I need a way for them to do attributes. We've rolled dice, used point buy, and just picked our stats in the past. I'm not sure what to do this time, so EN World how should my players determine their character's attributes?

I'm not making this a poll because there are options I might not think of so please suggest whatever comes to mind.

[Wik]

Well, since they already have characters roughly in mind, I like this one:

Have all stats start at 8. Roll 10d4. Players assign the individual die results to the ability scores, keeping in mind that no score can go over 18 at this point. So, if you were making a fighter, and rolled 1,1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, and 4.... you could assign stats as follows:

Strength: 18 (8 + 2 + 4 + 4)
Constitution: 15 (8 + 2 + 2 + 3)
Dexterity: 11 (8 + 2 + 1)
Intelligence: 10 (8 + 1 + 1)
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 8

it's a fun system, and a joy to play around with.

I also like assign 24d6 among your 6 abilities, with each ability requiring at least 3d6. Roll the dice, keeping the three highest results. So, our fighter could look like:

Strength: 6d6 (final roll wound up being 15)
Constitution: 5d6 (13 final roll)
Dexterity: 4d6 (11 final roll)
Intelligence: 3d6 (6 final roll)
Wisdom: 3d6 (14 final roll)
Charisma: 3d6 (10 final roll)

Which is a fun system, and creates some oddball characters that are usually at least sort of close to what the Players want (but still with some of those weird little quirks that characters will get from time to time).

[kaomera]

Originally Posted by Crothian

I encourage them to create a character without mechanics first and then do the character sheet last.

If you think it might work, you can simply have them record whatever scores they want. Most players like being challenged (or at the very least the illusion of challenge), and should be willing to put aside any tendencies to power-grab / min-max.

[Treebore]

The current favored method is 10+2d4+/- racial mods among my groups.

[fba827]

if you have any players that are particularly sensitive to equality in stats, how about you (DM) pick 6 stats and the players take those same 6 stats and can assign them as needed (and then apply racial mods). Essentially, coming up with your own standard array for this set of characters.

[Herremann the Wise]

Originally Posted by fba827

if you have any players that are particularly sensitive to equality in stats, how about you (DM) pick 6 stats and the players take those same 6 stats and can assign them as needed (and then apply racial mods). Essentially, coming up with your own standard array for this set of characters.

I think this is pretty much spot on and a tactic I've used in the past - although from memory I had closer to 20 options with a few extra goodies thrown in for choosing "second tier" distributions rather than "first tier" distributions. I assume from previous posting that you're playing 4e so you could offer bonus healing surges, a feat, training in a particular skill etc., different racial bonuses or campaign benefits such as bonus starting money or even a bonus at-will power for particular distributions. This allows your players to invest a little more into the process and gives them a few extra options and chance for differentiation from others.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

[StreamOfTheSky]

Point Buy is the best, IMO.

If you must roll, I like what one of my DMs once did: Everyone rolls for stats using whatever method (4d6 drop the lowest; 5d6 drop 2 lowest, whatever) and the DM computes the average and then offers that as a point buy to anyone stuck with the low end. So then at least no one utterly sucks because of a bunch of one-off rolls. A funny consequence is that people who roll really well end up helping the group -- they raise the amount the lower half will get slightly.

Or...have them do a series of tests to determine their own ability scores...

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Or...have them do a series of tests to determine their own ability scores...

Hahaha, sorta like how Morrowind gave you a questionnaire to determine your class? (That setup in Morrowind was optional, but good for players who didn't worry about 'CharOp' and just wanted to jump in quick.)

[delericho]

Originally Posted by Crothian

I encourage them to create a character without mechanics first and then do the character sheet last.

If that's the order, then I'd recommend point buy (for 3e, 28 or 32 points, depending on campaign power level). Or, if you trust your players not to abuse it, just let them select their stats.

I've tried a whole bunch of creation methods over time, and have found, on balance, that point buy tends to give the most satisfying results (despite the min-maxing that seems to be an inevitable consequence). I've found that random rolls work well in theory, but always seem to end up with one PC having much better stats than the rest (and usually one with much worse stats as well).

(That said, the standard 4d6-drop-lowest does seem to work reasonably well, most of the time.)

One method I really like (but which is totally unsuited to your campaign) works as follows: The players roll 4d6 (drop lowest) seven times, and keep the results in order. They may then swap any two numbers around, and then drop one stat from the set, but have to use the resulting numbers in order. (The 'swap' and 'drop' steps can be done in either order.)

(So, a player might roll 9, 12, 15, 16, 8, 10 and 7. He can then swap any two numbers (for example, to get 16, 12, 15, 9, 8, 10, 7), and then drop one (to get 16, 12, 15, 9, 10, 7), but then has to use the numbers in order: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 7.)

However, the inability to order the stats as desired makes this method unsuitable for your use: the players are really going to need more control over which stat goes where to match up the mechanics of their characters with the concept.

Another method I experimented with, but ultimately discarded, was to use a set of playing cards with all the 7's though 10's and all the 'face cards' removed (leaving only the 1's through 6's). Each player would then shuffle the remaining cards and deal six hands of four cards each. In each hand you then discard the lowest value card, sum the rest, and arrange the numbers as desired.

This method gave some element of randomness in the stats, while generally eliminating the "one player rolls really high; one rolls really low" issue from the standard 4d6. However, I generally found that it left most characters with one really low stat, moreso than occurred with the standard 4d6.

[Aus_Snow]

For a slight variation on the array approach, you could set one up all-odds or all-evens, then have each player apply, let's say, a +1 and two -1s (to a different ability score each time, max. 18) - this gives three odds and three evens, and a bit of flexibility, while preserving overall balance (and, of course, abilities that should be able to match their character concepts quite closely.) Modifiers from race, template, and so on are applied afterwards.

For example, if it's a rather high-powered campaign (or an extremely dangerous one, perhaps!) you could go for something like this: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. Equivalent to 38pb before adjustments, so some would call this over the top, or worse.

A (for some) radical alternative is 'ability auctions' where, well, the players get to bid on each ability. This has cropped up in a few systems out there, but I'm not sure how popular it has proved / would prove with many gamers.

[Flatus Maximus]

Let me get my math geek hat on...there. Roll 3d6 thirty-six times and put the results in a 6-by-6 matrix. Label the rows/columns Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha. Now choose one of the six rows, or one of the six columns, or the main (\) diagonal. "Make it work!"

Edit: You can replace 3d6 with 4d6-drop-lowest, or whatever.

Edit: The cherry-pic version: In whatever order you like, pick a score for a stat from its row and column, then cross off the row and column.

[diaglo]

3d6 in order
str
int
wis
con
dex
cha

[malkav666]

My groups tend to use 3d6 or 4d6 drop the lowest down the line (sometimes with a swap, sometimes not). But as you are asking them to envision their characters before they roll their toons, then these methods will not work as the stats rolled pretty much determine what the party will be (and leads to some really cool party composition IMO, but its definitely more and oldschool approach).

If you want your players to have toons more in line with the persona's they have built then you will need to use a more fluid, less random system. Some posters have suggested various die rolling methods, and those are always nice. I am a fan of 20-24d6 recording the rolls individually and placing three in each score and dropping the rest.

I have also used arrays in the past. Which basically means I pick some scores that I think are a good power level (and maybe even put a low one in there, like say an 7-8) and let each player assign those same scores to their toon in whatever order they wish.

Point buy can work as well, but it does lead to a little bit of min maxing. Here are a couple of variants on the standard point buy that may add a little variation to the scores of your group:

Variant 1: Write down the point buy chart on a scratch piece of paper, and as a player buys a score, scratch it from the list, so that the same score may not be purchased more than once. If a player has left over points at the end they lose them. This may seem odd, but you may find characters lowering some of those really high stats to make sure they can use all of their points or raising a stat they would not other wise raise. If you want to get really serious with it you can randomly strike 1-3 numbers fro the list before the player even starts picking their scores (we usually roll ours out in the open as a group). I find that this method gives all of my experienced players a really good challenge to making a character. The more points you give for a point buy, the more challenging this variant is to use.

Variant 2. Use a fairly low point buy (I am talking turnip farmer low 12-18 points is a good range). Then once the scores are generated and racial bonuses applied, pull out your d6 and roll it several times for each character with a 1 representing STR, and 2 representing DEX, and the numbers following the scores as they are listed. Every time a score is rolled you add 1 to it. Roll as many times as you need to (I usually roll 4-6 times per character depending on how many points I gave them to start with). This gives the player an amount of control over their base stats, but lets a little randomness in as well (Don't be afraid to set a cap on what the +1 bonuses can be added to. I personally don't let random d6 additions tack a score above 20 after racial adjustments).

You can also reverse this variant and give the players a goodly amount of points to start with, and then roll your D6 when they are done to remove 1 point from a stat per roll. How many times you roll is up to you, but it should be the same for each player. You can also set some guidelines for how the scores can be hit if you are feeling particularly care-bearish (some good guidelines are to not allow a score to be taken below a certain number but deductions (I would use 7), and to allow the character to choose a special score they don't want hit and then say the score may only be hit x times (with x being a number between 1 and 3, depending on the randomness factor). Beware of these variants however, while they are fun, you can still end up with some disparity in overall power level in the party using them (though IME, it is never really that great).

3. My personal favorite is this:

(this step requires that the party not assign roles before starting but rather just make them, and it will require some index cards and a hat or box or something to draw them out of)

Step one: have the party decide the roles the party will need

For instance they may decide as a group they want a Paladin Tank, A Cleric, A rogue, and Sorcerer. Write those classes on the index cards and place them in the hat.

Step 2: have the players draw a card and ask them to put a flaw down on the piece of paper with the class. This can anything from The sorcerer is feeble due to never got a workout, to the rogue is nearsighted. Put the cards back in the box.

Step three: have the players draw them again and write down a quirk about the character. This should be something that is out of the ordinary for a member of that class, such as the paladin wishes he had been a wizard, or the sorcerer is a disco master. Put the cards back int he box.

Step four: Pull the cards back out randomly and ask each player to assign points using whatever point buy is appropriate for your game taking into account the flaw and the quirk listed on the index card for that character (you can look over them when they are done if or help your players with the assignment if you are unsure of their willingness/ability to do so. Write the stats on the card and put them back in the hat.

Step five: shuffle them and pass them out randomly. The card that each player has is the character they will play. Let them finish making the characters from this point. If you are feeling really saucy you can make them randomly roll for race, but it is not necessary (and sometimes can really hurt a toon depending on the race rolled).

This method makes sure that the party composition is thought out, and that that powergamer in your group got to use his powergaming skills. But his munchkined toon might be in the hands of the non-powergamer


I hope your game goes well.

love,

malkav

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Consult the Book of Armaments:
Ability Scores for Characters

[Voadam]

Point buy for balanced mechanics is my suggestion.

[Crothian]

I'm not that concerned with balance. It's more an illusion that makes people feel better but I've shown the players it means less the games want it to.

Last time we picked attribute and it was a big social experiment and worked great. The players have hinted that they if we do it agian they might try to abuse it since no one did last time. I still may let them do this to see if they are bluffing.

I'm not a fan of point buy. We usuallyu do that but I am hoping to get something more fun. Rolling of dice or using cards creates a randomness I like but some of the players are fearful of their luck. Plus with creating the character ahead of time like we have random can play against that.

I was thinking of maybe doing a draft and put in there some other mechancally benifits to see what happens.

[Dausuul]

Here's an idea you could try, well-suited to 3E: Have each player make up a stat array. The player uses that stat array for his or her PC, and then you use the same array to stat up an NPC who will be that character's personal nemesis.

[Mallus]

Originally Posted by Crothian

Last time we picked attribute and it was a big social experiment and worked great.

Then do it again. It sounds like a really cool way to create characters.

The players have hinted that they if we do it agian they might try to abuse it since no one did last time.

Ask them not to. Nicely.

But tell them your words are backed up by nuclear weapons (I mean, 'by a DM toolkit full of rat-bastardry!')

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Crothian

I encourage them to create a character without mechanics first and then do the character sheet last. It's worked well for us in the past.

If you have encouraged this, then you should provide them with a way to generate stats that fits the image they've created. Nothing would stink more than to have the GM lead yo to this cool concept you'd love to play, only to have it dashed because you don't have the stats.

The simplest way to get that, and still retain game balance, would be some form of point-buy.

You could also:

Allow players to roll several characters worth of stats, and take the one that best fits their concept - this will tend to lead to the party having fairly high stats, but that's often acceptable.

Allow the players to assign stats, or roll them. Let them know beforehand that you'll be doing an editing pass for balance, so that if they hand you a sheet with all 18s, you're going to hand it back and say "try again", or you may tweak something up or down to make the group all roughly the same power.

Sit down with each player and discuss their concepts. You, as the DM, assign stats to fit their description.

There are also group auction methods of generation, where your players can actually cooperate and negotiate to help each other build stats. I find them more complicated than they are worth, but your group might find them to be fun.

[delericho]

Originally Posted by Crothian

I'm not a fan of point buy. We usuallyu do that but I am hoping to get something more fun. Rolling of dice or using cards creates a randomness I like but some of the players are fearful of their luck.

You could have each player roll a single attribute (and maybe have someone roll some 'extras' until you get to 6 total), then have everyone use the resulting 'array'.