General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
We all know there are problem players in games, they will crop up in your groups again and again. Be it people that want to hog all the loot/spotlight, or the power player playing in a game where no one else is a power player, or just the player that never seems to co-operate with the party out of spite.
One of my game groups has the latter at the moment. For example, the player has waited to see which tunnel the rest of the PCs went down in a dungeon, then choose the opposite one and almost died.
On another occasion the player (a rogue) is currently trapped by some drakes, the shaman gave allies CA against some enemies so he may hit them better and the paladin cleared a path so he may escape afterwards. The rogue then proceeds to hit a target he doesn't have CA against and stays there. Now the player is complaining that he is running out of healing surges, yet the rest of the party is on 9-11 healing surges left.
I currently have no idea how to deal with the player because I am giving him tips but he ain't listening to me much. Anyone got any tips?
Share your stories about problem players and what you did to deal with them.
__________________ DM: You see a small blue blink dog approach you.
Player 1: Oh ... my .. god, a pokemon! Quick, catch it!
This isn't your fight as DM. Shut up about it and let the players police themselves. Efficient use of resources is the party's responsibility. Your job is complicated enough without having to manage their play as well. Focus on creating challenging combats, interesting plot hooks, and detailed settings. Your players should focus on surviving all three.
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
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One of my game groups has the latter at the moment. For example, the player has waited to see which tunnel the rest of the PCs went down in a dungeon, then choose the opposite one and almost died.
On another occasion the player (a rogue) is currently trapped by some drakes, the shaman gave allies CA against some enemies so he may hit them better and the paladin cleared a path so he may escape afterwards. The rogue then proceeds to hit a target he doesn't have CA against and stays there.
Kill his character. It's one thing to consider giving a player a break if he finds himself in trouble because the dice betray him, but it's quite another to do so if he gets into trouble by his own willful stupidity. Sometimes lessons have to be learned the hard way - in the long run you'd probably be doing him a favour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roguerouge
This isn't your fight as DM. Shut up about it and let the players police themselves.
When the party goes left, and another player goes right, that player is often trying to hog the spotlight. They want some 1 on 1 time.
As a DM, it's too easy to get sucked into that, because you are getting active prompts from the player.
When he says I go over here to do X, say, ok, I'll get back to that later. Cut to the main party and leave his sorry ass. And when you do cut back to him, make it DULL and boring. There's no monsters. No saving the day. No secret treasure.
I do agree to a point about letting the PCs do their own policing, however, I also believe its the job of the DM to make sure the game is fun for all the players. If a problem player is causing stress to the rest of the party and causing the players to not enjoy the game I think something should be done. I confess I don't always know what, but getting input on it is helping me think of a solution.
__________________ DM: You see a small blue blink dog approach you.
Player 1: Oh ... my .. god, a pokemon! Quick, catch it!
As DM I'll go to a fair amount of trouble to protect the PCs from my mistakes, and I'll even try to cushion the impact of theirs to a certain extent. But if a player does suicidal things because he feels like being contrary, that's his problem and I'm not cutting him any slack. He's out of healing surges because he essentially threw them away? Tough.
The important thing is not to punish the other players for his antics. For example, recognize that his rogue is not going to be worth a full character in combat - maybe half of one - and scale down the difficulty to compensate.
Likewise, try to design adventures so that the ability of one player to pull down horrible trouble on the whole party is limited. Players of the type you describe have a habit of pissing off the city watch for no reason, or rousing the ire of big nasty things on their solo expeditions and then running back to the party with big nasty things in tow.
So make sure the city watch is understanding and sympathetic to the other PCs, and big nasty things either a) won't chase the rogue too far, b) can immobilize or insta-kill* a solo PC, or c) aren't too big and nasty for the party to handle.
I also agree with Janx that when a guy sneaks away from the party (as opposed to the party sending him to scout), he shouldn't be rewarded with extra "face time." If one group contains 3 PCs and the other contains 1 PC, then the second group should get roughly one-third the time and DM attention of the first.
He still gets full-sized encounters, though, with predictable results.
As for giving him tips: Don't bother. Judging by his behavior, he'll probably react badly to advice. Let him figure out combat tactics for himself, or not, and live with the consequences.
*I do not generally endorse monsters with insta-kill powers. However, if the heroic-tier party comes across an epic-level dragon, and this bozo goes and pokes the dragon with a sharp stick just for the hell of it, I think it's fine to have the dragon look down irritably and unleash an epic-level breath weapon that blasts the bozo down from full hit points to negative bloodied in one shot.
__________________ Have you ever known a person who always behaved exactly the way you expected? Real people don't stay in character.
Last edited by Dausuul; 5th November 2009 at 04:19 PM..
I currently have no idea how to deal with the player because I am giving him tips but he ain't listening to me much. Anyone got any tips?
Talk with your group out-of-game. Openly discuss the problems your having. Be direct. If you're having trouble dealing with the level of cooperation between the PC's, ask them to cooperate more. Tell the group that this issue, however minor it may seem to some (or one) of them, is making the game harder for you to run.
Ask them if they really want to make the game more difficult for you to run? I bet most players don't.
If no compromises can be found, remove the player(s) incapable of reaching a compromise.
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What to do with problem players.
Affix electrified metal plates to the seats of your players chairs. Keep the switch/button for the plates behind a Kevlar DM's screen. Whenever a player makes a stupid decision, causes any trouble (you know - bothering the DM with questions), or anything else you deem as an annoyance, hit the button. Also, you need to lock the door(s) to your gaming room, and pocket the key, so your players can't escape.
Don't forget to seed the floor around your seat with D20 shaped caltrops (to defend against the players attempting to storm your position).
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
If a player wants to do his own thing - in exploration or combat - then he should be rolling up new character every other session, because a DND dungeon is a dangerous place.
Thumbs down from me too; Kill him....
__________________ Pablo El Vagabundo
"Mercy!? You want MERCY? I'M CHAOTIC NEUTRAL!!!"
When he says I go over here to do X, say, ok, I'll get back to that later. Cut to the main party and leave his sorry ass. And when you do cut back to him, make it DULL and boring. There's no monsters. No saving the day. No secret treasure.
I disagree. If there is something there to be encountered, let him encounter it. Give the player a round of combat or up to two to three minutes of focus if non combat. Then, immediately cut back and give the group an equal amount of time *per character* in the main group before returning to the loner. The group receives the main focus of the time and the loner player gets his moment of spotlight, but has to until everybody else gets their time before receiving his turn again.
And, if the loner dies, so be it. That is the price for seperating oneself.
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
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A pc who refuses to function effectively should reap the rewards of his behavior. The rogue that sneaks off on his own when the rest of the party is going elsewhere should find himself either fleeing to rejoin his friends or dealing with a full-scale encounter by himself.
If he's actually trying to be sneaky/scout, it's different- he would try to avoid engaging monsters, etc- but it sounds like this guy is what you would term an 'outlier'- he gets off on doing stuff that the party doesn't expect, running off on his own and trying to spotlight hog.
Enforce the consequences of his actions. Maybe he dies a lot because of it. He'll learn or quit. Either way, problem solved.
If you assume you know why the problem is happening, and you act on that, and you are wrong, you are doing the player, and your game, a disservice.
Whatever happened to asking? When in doubt talk about problems.
Maybe the player really isn't a good tactician, and doesn't understand that the challenges are geared for a party that is cooperating.
Maybe, you, as the GM, haven't actually been giving that player as much spotlight as you think, so they are trying to grab it where they can.
Maybe... seventeen other things. The point is that unless you find out why the player is doing this, your response to it is apt to be the wrong one.
this.
I would like to add also that the chances of working it out so that you actually keep the player and/or their behavior improving, is pretty much hinged on treating the player like you would like to be treated.
If you have a player that consistently makes poor tactical decisions, you could try advising them that it is probably a poor idea to split from the party and go off alone in a dungeon environment. If a rogue is not flanking repeatedly, try asking them if they realize how much their DPS will increase if they do flank as a rogue.
You find your player is just trying to find their footing in the game. Or as Umb said, it could be a variety of other reasons. It does not always have to be my player is a PIA because hes a rude er. Of course that could be the reason But IMO it should not be the first assumption.
Run em through the hand hold for a bit. If ti becomes evident that the player is acting out just to be contrary, then pull them aside the first few times and ask them why they are being contrary, and what they hope to accomplish by doing so. If they continue doing it then start asking them these questions in front of their peers, if it still persists, then squish them a few times and let their character have the full effects of their actions. Or even better, ALMOST squish them, and let the other party members save their characters butt in a way that makes the saviors look like a hero and the standout look a fool.
If all else fails and it is really grating you, then remove the player. But be careful about this. It is my experience that when someone is acting out in an RP game, their intent is not usually: Annoy the piss out of my friends and peers. Find out what it is and work with it. I have some really awesome long term great friends who started out as that annoying player in some group I was in.
When you say you're giving the player suggestions/tips, it kind of depends on how you're doing it. if during the scenario, he(assuming a he) moves to a spot and you tell him 'are you sure you want to do that, how about here instead for better cover' then that could get annoying ('why is the dm trying to play my pc?') -- so i'd suggest making more nonspecific situation comments to the group. "So i'm noticing some of you run out of surges fast and it's bothering you -- are there ways the group can address it?"
ultimately, that sort of question usually comes full circle to talk about things you may have already been suggesting (like don't let the rogue get his rear in such tight spots to begin with) but it puts the conversation in their hands and allows some of the other people to mention stuff without it coming from you.
alternatively, give his -character- reason to want to stick with the party. some sort of mark of justice effect (for his crime he has to hang within a certain distance of an official... if someone in the party is an official). or maybe he meets someone/greater being/npc that gives him a personal quest and that personal quest gives him in-character reasons to want to hang around the other pcs. maybe he has to guard a certain other pc because their destinies are tied together and it will bring him great rewards in the future. maybe he's asked to spy on a certain other pc and report back every night using a special one-way communication stone until he receives further instructions (of course, he may never get those further instructions or it could be a plot device for later on, hopfully after he's learned the lesson of 'hang around the party if you want to live')
how well this (or any suggestion) works depends on the personalities of your players and also on what sort of relationship they have amongst each other. - sotake any of these ideas with a grain of salt...
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Cry......cry a lot. It has helped me so many times. When a player starts being a problem, I turn on the waterworks and start babbling. Blowing your nose into tissue helps a lot too.
Then, when everyone has paused in disbelief, I start rambling about how "I try so hard to be a good DM, but I'm a failure. Somebody always has to be disruptive in the game and all I want to do is provide people with a fun session. But no matter how hard I try, somebody always has to cause problems. Why god....why can't people just chill out and be cool? Why do you keep forcing these douchbags on me? What have I done to displease you? Can't you just turn him into salt or something the next time he causes the group grief? Please, I beg of you!"
If that doesn't work, just hang out with him and ask him why he keeps doing the things he does that annoys you. See if you guys can work it out. If he doesn't change, then.....ready, aim, boot! If enough people boot problem players more often, then maybe they'll be on good behavior when joining a new group. Then hopefully we'll have less problem players when they realize they aren't going to get away with it.
If you assume you know why the problem is happening, and you act on that, and you are wrong, you are doing the player, and your game, a disservice.
Whatever happened to asking? When in doubt talk about problems.
Maybe the player really isn't a good tactician, and doesn't understand that the challenges are geared for a party that is cooperating.
Maybe, you, as the GM, haven't actually been giving that player as much spotlight as you think, so they are trying to grab it where they can.
Maybe... seventeen other things. The point is that unless you find out why the player is doing this, your response to it is apt to be the wrong one.
I pretty much have to agree with this 100%. One of the huge advantages of playing a game face to face over online is that everyone is right there to talk to. In cases like this, I tend to be very direct and say "this is pretty much a team based game, so by going off by yourself, you're not only likely to get into something you can't handle by yourself, but also cut into everyone's fun. Are you sure you want to do that?"
And follow that up with "what's going on here?" if the situation continues. It's hard to be direct and avoid the passive aggressiveness, but trust me, it really works out better in the long run.
Why someone does something is the clue to figuring out how to fix it.
--Steve
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I play 4E, and it's every bit as much Dungeons and Dragons as any other edition, including the one(s) you play. No more, and no less.
On another occasion the player (a rogue) is currently trapped by some drakes, the shaman gave allies CA against some enemies so he may hit them better and the paladin cleared a path so he may escape afterwards. The rogue then proceeds to hit a target he doesn't have CA against and stays there. Now the player is complaining that he is running out of healing surges, yet the rest of the party is on 9-11 healing surges left.
I currently have no idea how to deal with the player because I am giving him tips but he ain't listening to me much. Anyone got any tips?
If he's unwilloing to listen, and unwilling to cooperate, let the dice fall where they may and let the character die. Its a lesson he may need to leran repeatedly.
Sorry, dont have any problem player issues currently. If you cant work with the gaming group, you dont make the cut. Only one or two have ever not been asked to stay. One just couldnt keep the schedule and never came back, the one guy who WAS a problem player- left without saying.
He was starting to be a problem. We generally work together, but he made a character that didnt fit in. Further claimed he was a cleric- but really was a rogue that was being a charlatin that was starting to actively work aganist the party cleric- who was doing good works in the city.(the worst part was he was an ineffective character- he just couldnt do anything really that well the party needed). Needless to say, actively working against the party's cleric's interest brought down on his head a world of anger from the rest of the party who depended on the cleric's healing(3.5 game). The last session his character was around(he didnt show, but left the DM detailed email) afterwards he was given a nice talking to by the cleric while the angry barbarian held his ankles above bridge with a very very long fall.
We gave him ample opportunity to come clean and work with us, but if he stayed around and refused? His character would have died.
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