General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
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Yea. Spycraft's levels don't really mesh with d20Modern levels. D20Modern tends to map everybody on the 1 - 20 scale, Ordinary/Hero axis.
Spycraft ... the heroes are THE HEROES (all caps). Everybody else is, well, a skill bonus or two. Or a BAB and a damage save. The great unwashed masses are no threat to superspies such as they. As pointed out, many of the classes START OUT, at 1st level, being utterly unable to fail anything but a check at the very very top edge of "doable". They get, pretty much, a free "Take 17". Characters start out with a few more feats and a handful of class abilities tightly focused to their archetype.
d20Modern characters don't hit their stride until 4th level, when they can choose to narrow down to an archetype. Before that, they feat up and collect a few general abilities where they wish.
D20 Modern 1st Level "Soldier" - A kid just out of boot camp. He has some chops, but he certainly isn't Biff Rocky-abs: Man About Town.
Spycraft 1st level Soldier - Sgt. "Tankbuster" Tankersly ... man's man with a smoking LAW on his shoulder and a cigar in his teeth. He's the Best of the Best of the Best, SIR! And at level 20 ... well, he's still the best of the best of the best ... he just gets a bigger rocket launcher.
They're just VERY different types of games, on some really core-level points. Some people are just going to like one style of gaming over the other.
Okay, fair enough. I don't think that either system is lethal enough to be realistic in that regard, but yes, people do bleed out a lot quicker from knife wounds that gun shots. So given that both are unrealistic, but D20 gives the blade a greater damage potential I can just about buy it. (Though this is also where I prefer VP/WP to HD, wounds are potentially just a bit more serious. But on a relative blades vs. guns scale as opposed to a VP/WP vs. HD scale you are correct. In a way we were having two different discussions.)
Point of order - many edged weapons have the Bleed quality, so there's a reason for your competent pugilist to carry one. Losing one VP a round to a single damaging hit sucks
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And I check the Crafty Games website almost daily to find out if they are open for business yet.
SO CLOSE. I'll be reviewing the final touches Scott and Patrick are putting on the site this evening, getting the final forum theme up, and then posting it (gods willing). Mark my words - I do NOT want this damn thing hanging over my head during my wedding/honeymoon (beginning this weekend!)
I found Savage Worlds too... formless? for my tastes. It was overly simplified, and not what I wanted at all, at all. Savage Worlds ruined me for Savage Worlds gaming...
The Auld Grump, especially the Weird Science rules. 'Just treat them as magic items' was not what I wanted, no not at all.
To each his own. I read about it & followed it in the designer's notes, but I really didn't appreciate how much simpler it makes gaming until I read the revised book & ran a few sessions. My prep time is down about 90%. I think Shane nailed it with these design goals:
Shane's design goals:
As a Game Master:
1) I want a game that it's easy to make up monsters, NPCs, magic items, weapons, etc. on the fly. If I have to look up lots of charts and tables, add up points (as a GM, not a player), and so on, it's too complicated.
2) I want a game where "mooks" are either up, down, or off the table. I don't want to keep track of wounds for lesser NPCs--only important bad guys, villains, dragons, and so on.
3) I want a game that easily handles vehicles. The vehicle rules in many games require a PHD to decipher.
4) I want a game a non-gamer friend of mine can look at and understand *at a glance.* The basic rules for Savage Worlds can be described in one sentence.
5) I want a game that has a "spine" capable of gaming any genre, but allows me to insert special rules to tailor specific genres. Horror needs detailed fright tables, for instance, and a pulp heroes game needs to be less gritty and deadly than World War II.
7) As a GM, I want to roll *one* attack die for my bad guys to see if they hit, and I don't want to do any math to it. If three orcs gang up on a hero, I want to roll 3 dice, look for hits, and be done.
As a player I want:
1) I want a game that provides real depth for characters. I want to see my character grow, gain new special abilities, and even increase my skills and attributes.
2) I want a game that handles large battles fast. If my sergeant in World War II persuades the villagers to fight beside him, I want them on the table-top, not glossed over.
Update: After going round and round on this one a bit, what I was really after was reasonable speed--but more importantly--ease. I just don't want to do a lot of bookeeping during a fight.
3) I want my NPC allies to have names and at least a "personality" trait for each. If my Lt. in Vietnam needs to send someone to scout a hill, I want to know who's "Gung Ho," "Reliable," "Shifty," "Lazy," and so on.
4) I want a little control over the dice--like Fate Chips or bennies--so the hero I've been working on for a year doesn't drop dead because of one bad die roll. Two or three I can handle, but not one.
5) "Open ended die rolls." If I get lucky and roll that high number, I want to keep rolling and feel like I just conquered the world.
And most of those other arguments are either exagerations (like requiring PHDs) or apply to any system...
I mean, you want mooks in d20, just give them 1 hp. Most RPG systems allow NPCs to have names and personalities so I don't even understand that point (though perhaps since SW was originally based on a wargame, their Rail Wars mini game, he's comparing it to mini games). Large battles goes back to having mooks.
__________________
Disco Stu loves disco. Trancejeremy loves trance. But also disco. And breakbeat. But I hate techno.
I'm not sure why savage worlds is in this thread at all. On topic, Spycraft 2 succeeds at this point...
1) I want a game that provides real depth for characters. I want to see my character grow, gain new special abilities, and even increase my skills and attributes.
...to a remarkable degree. Just ran a 'Starcraft' game (Starwars using the Spycraft 2 mod started on the AEG forums). A two player game with Jedi's, one a Scout, the other a Soldier, both 4th level. Rocked on toast. They loved what they could do at 4th level. The jedi-scout tracked down the main baddy using his awesome first level Auto-tracking ability (essentially, unless you roll a 1 you're assumed to have rolled a 20+level). The Jedi-soldier with 2 feats felt like he was fencing and the combat script wrote itself.
For myself the bad-guy npc creation worked to perfection. Took me 2 minutes to create from scratch using the guidelines from the book. Used assassin as the base and the final battle worked on multiple levels. This guy I created went down against two to one odds but not before getting a lucky shot in critical (which of course I confirmed by spending a GC action die, this being the final fight of the evening).
After the session they got a chance to look at the even cooler things those same characters would be able to do as levels increased. Very much fun. You can develop character/story in pretty much any game depending on style of play, this is not dependant on the ruleset you use. For granular character sheet development you need a system designed to reward that style of play. Spycraft 2 does this in spades.
Final Note from the evening: Exploding Action Dice work wonders for the players and the Spirited campaign quality only makes this better. Players also loved being in control of when to confirm the threat they rolled either using skills or in combat.
As for Savage Worlds... of the reactions I've seen to the game, people either love it to death or just go, "Enh." (Mine was the latter.) If the OP is curious, the freebie sample rules are on the PEG website (as the first person who mentioned SW already said).
__________________ If knowledge of a game's plot would spoil its experience, it isn't a game.
... A player cannot learn of a game's ending without experiencing it, because a game is not a linear object.
—Mike Mearls
This was the main thing that turned me off about the game.
E.g., many of the Disadvantages in the chargen system provide big rewards in exchange for roleplaying quirks that have no defined in-game effect. "Greedy" is a major disad, yet all it comprises is "Your character is really greedy." It may keep things fast and fun by leaving this kind of thing vague, but it just rubbed me the wrong way.
Anyway... back to the actual topic.
__________________ If knowledge of a game's plot would spoil its experience, it isn't a game.
... A player cannot learn of a game's ending without experiencing it, because a game is not a linear object.
—Mike Mearls
I know in my case, it isn't an "either or" situation. Spycraft has plenty o stuff that shows up in my d20M game, as does some of Mongoose's modern-esque offerings and of course, plenty of 3rd party support.
As someone who has enjoyed modern gaming at least as much (if not more) than fantasy since the late 70's, I really see this as a time where we have an embarrasment of riches as opposed to the past.
As someone who has enjoyed modern gaming at least as much (if not more) than fantasy since the late 70's, I really see this as a time where we have an embarrasment of riches as opposed to the past.
As a devoted Top Secret player back in the day, and an equally devoted Modern player now, I agree wholeheartedly.
__________________ On weird fantasy: "The Otus/Elmore rule: When adding something new to the campaign, try and imagine how Erol Otus would depict it. If you can, that's far enough...it's a good idea. If you can picture a Larry Elmore version...it's far too mundane and boring, excise immediately." - Kellri, K&K Alehouse
As for Savage Worlds... of the reactions I've seen to the game, people either love it to death or just go, "Enh." (Mine was the latter.) If the OP is curious, the freebie sample rules are on the PEG website (as the first person who mentioned SW already said).
Indeed it does - it's an offshoot of the Mutants and Masterminds Toughness save - mooks roll d20 + Toughness bonus versus DC 10 + damage dealt - damage resistance. Though I don't have my book in front of me, I also believe that repeated Toughness saves start applying a -1 penalty to those saves for every one made after the first. Mooks will go down. That combined with an intuitive and fast NPC creation system is one of the things that make SC 2.0 go from Really Good to Friggin' Awesome, IMO. And now that they've put out a PDF, the OGC is eminently mineable.
I've spent quite a bit of time playing HERO the last couple of years and recently I got into a Mutants and Mastermnds game.
That has given me the bug for getting some of my d20, including d20 Modern, stuff out of the closet. I also read on the Traveller20 boards about potentially using Spycraft 2.0 instead of the PHB for the core book. This has led me to seek out some research on Spycraft 2.0. I've heard that Spycraft is more modern action movie oriented like d20 Modern. However, I've been skittish about investing into another book with a modern theme. However, d20M and I just don't seem to get along as most games I have played or GMed in felt like eating fast food( your hungry again in an hour). So hearing you folks breakdown Spycraft 2.0 and compare it to d20 Modern without it turning into a flamefest has given me good insights. I will get me a copy of Spycraft 2.0 for GMing and maybe give d20M another shot as a player.
I've spent quite a bit of time playing HERO the last couple of years and recently I got into a Mutants and Mastermnds game.
That has given me the bug for getting some of my d20, including d20 Modern, stuff out of the closet. I also read on the Traveller20 boards about potentially using Spycraft 2.0 instead of the PHB for the core book. This has led me to seek out some research on Spycraft 2.0. I've heard that Spycraft is more modern action movie oriented like d20 Modern. However, I've been skittish about investing into another book with a modern theme. However, d20M and I just don't seem to get along as most games I have played or GMed in felt like eating fast food( your hungry again in an hour). So hearing you folks breakdown Spycraft 2.0 and compare it to d20 Modern without it turning into a flamefest has given me good insights. I will get me a copy of Spycraft 2.0 for GMing and maybe give d20M another shot as a player.
Americanarchy Storyhour updated 8 March, 2004 Editor:
Modern Backdrops, and a bunch more D20 Modern and one D20 Fantasy product. Technical info provided for Valherjar: The Chosen Slain
We'd be fighting 2nd tier Goa'Ulds, too... While we wouldn't have the glory of killing Amon Ra the ruler of a thousand worlds and terror of the System Lords, we WOULD get to fight his younger brother... Bubba Ray. Manager of the Ra-Mart, and terror of those who abuse the quarter fed riding Unas out front of the store.
Freelance Status - Now - Writing mechanics for Modern Backdrops II Next up - Editing YotZ project [X] Then - Writing project I hope will be picked up and purchased by everyone.
Quick update: Just wanted to post that I spent a good chunk of the holiday reading Spycraft 2.0, and I must say... it really kicks d20M's bootie. And I say this as someone who realy loves d20M. I have yet to see another d20-based game that makes skill use as interesting as SC2.0 does.
Once Farthest Star and the reprint of the core book come out, I will be beside myself with glee.
Now I just have to convince my group to play it.
__________________ If knowledge of a game's plot would spoil its experience, it isn't a game.
... A player cannot learn of a game's ending without experiencing it, because a game is not a linear object.
—Mike Mearls
Americanarchy Storyhour updated 8 March, 2004 Editor:
Modern Backdrops, and a bunch more D20 Modern and one D20 Fantasy product. Technical info provided for Valherjar: The Chosen Slain
We'd be fighting 2nd tier Goa'Ulds, too... While we wouldn't have the glory of killing Amon Ra the ruler of a thousand worlds and terror of the System Lords, we WOULD get to fight his younger brother... Bubba Ray. Manager of the Ra-Mart, and terror of those who abuse the quarter fed riding Unas out front of the store.
Freelance Status - Now - Writing mechanics for Modern Backdrops II Next up - Editing YotZ project [X] Then - Writing project I hope will be picked up and purchased by everyone.
I pciked up both books: SC2: i liked it for the fact that I'm sure it would make for a good MI3 type of game. For generic use though, I don't like it. Classes are not flexible for one. It is easily the most complicated d20/OGL game I have ever seen. The price IIRC was $50, not exactly a one per player book.
Modern: again don't like the classes. Chase rules are not good. on the upside there are a lot of suplements written for use with it so there are rule patches out there. The supplements are pretty good allowing you to play sci-fi,old west, psot apoc, and most anything non-fantasy.
For the type of game the OP was thinking of playing I would pick D20 Modern jsut for the fact that has a much lower learning curve IMO.
For generic use though, I don't like [Spycraft]. Classes are not flexible for one.
People have statted up quite a variety of characters on the Spycraft boards (Batman is the one that stands out in my memory). I think the espionage-heavy class names conceal how flexible they really are. Granted, they are far more strongly tied to the action/spy genre than d20M.
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Originally Posted by mcrow
It is easily the most complicated d20/OGL game I have ever seen.
I'd say "robust". The default game lacks magic, superpowers, and much super-science, ergo, it's going to focus on highly skilled "normals" flexing their talents. Given this assumption, I think the added detail simply makes the core focus of the game more interesting. Skill use is probably 50%-80% of the game, so it better be detailed.
E.g., to disarm a bomb in d20M, you roll a Demolitions check, and you either succeed or fail. In SC2.0, it's going to be a complex check involving multiple rolls that have to be completed within a certain number of rounds, with added Resolve (Concentration) checks if you're trying to do it while being shot at by terrorists. Failing them can increase your error range and eat up time.
To me, the latter is more interesting, assuming things like disarming bombs are a main focus of the game.
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Originally Posted by mcrow
The price IIRC was $50, not exactly a one per player book.
$25.17 on Amazon, $1 cheaper than d20M. Plus, it has 155 more pages than d20M.
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Originally Posted by mcrow
again don't like [Modern's] classes.
Man, what classes do you like? I like d20M's classes; they were one of the main selling points for me.
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Originally Posted by mcrow
on the upside there are a lot of suplements written for use with it so there are rule patches out there. The supplements are pretty good allowing you to play sci-fi,old west, psot apoc, and most anything non-fantasy.
This is d20M's biggest strength, IMO. The core book forms a very good blank canvas for adding on to, and there are a lot of good designers in multiple companies writing for it.
I'll be interested to see the supplements coming out for SC2.0, though. I'm also itching to see how it works in actual play. Looking foward big-time to the SC2.0 event I signed up for at GenCon.
__________________ If knowledge of a game's plot would spoil its experience, it isn't a game.
... A player cannot learn of a game's ending without experiencing it, because a game is not a linear object.
—Mike Mearls
Complex Checks are something I really liked from Alternity that I actually ported over to d20, well, right away.
So I'll agree that has a general leg up.
I need to put together a full-on probability-conversion for d20Modern, showing what the complex-check DCs should be for common DCs listed in the various skill descriptions.
I've been working with d20M alot and, honestly, it causes me to actually respect the decision not to use complex checks.
As Buzz points out, if the game is 60-80% skill checks and is going to feature alot of bomb-defusing action, then a complex skill check like that is a great thing.
But what if it isn't? You can model Sam "The Bombmeister" Johnson with a single throw and a high modifier. "Yay, you easily defused the bomb!" but you can also model John P. McBadass, ACTION HERO, who snips the right wire at the last minute with his toenail clippers while hanging upside down. "I did this once while training for shadow ops in Cambodia."
I.E. one difficult roll is easier to overcome with a lucky roll and spending an Action Point/Die, while complex checks generally favor failure and high skill bonuses.
That is, I think, a major reason for the "Can't Fail This" class abilities. IIRC, they tend to guarantee consistent high rolls for complex checks the class will often be making. I.E. fixing the fact that those complex checks are usually weighted to "the house".
Just a thought I had. D20Modern seems really well suited to doing alot of different genres, because many genre conventions were just left out. I'm working on a wild-west-type game and was in the process of creating a complex (and totally sweet, mind you) system for duels and quick-drawing your gun, etc etc. And I realized ... it's already there. If you want to be good at it, you take Quick Draw and Improved Initiative and have a high dex and spend an AP on your initiative roll. I didn't really need a whole new system, just a little section talking about it.
Some things I do change, of course. D20Modern is "action hero" focused and doesn't do the whole: "Ah! Y'shot me." one-shot-drop like westerns do, so I cranked the MDT down to 10 and added an ability that can force an MDT on a flatfooted character under certain circumstances (and spending an AP). I.E. The guy that loses the draw will have a reasonable chance of ending up at -1hp.
But that, again, is the point. You don't want my wild-west genre convention in your high-flying action game. It's more gritty than would be fun ... unless gritty is what you were looking for.
SC2.0 is an absolutely superb Superspies game. Top of the line.
That very fact starts to trip it up when it goes to do other things.
One additional plus for SC 2.0, I think, is that when 10,000 Bullets comes out it should be easier to run more generic modern campaigns, since it sounds like that campaign is designed around Sin City style characters and classes.
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