General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
Though I do wonder how many publishers, big and small, will continue supporting D20 Modern if WotC drops it.
My suspicion is not many.
Though I have some small glimmer of hope that Dark*Matter can rejuvinate D20 Modern. Heck, I am likely to pick up D*M to Spycraft it. My actual hope is that they choose to spin it off to another company rather than ditching it entirely, while I do not much love D20 Modern I don't hate it or its fans, and I do feel that it deserves a fairer deal than it appears WotC is giving it.
The Auld Grump, feeling pessimistic...
__________________ Oh, I am a cook, and a captain bold, and the mate of the Nancy brig,
The midship mite,
And the Bo'sun tight,
And the crew of the captain's gig...
Hopefully this is a refocusing instead of a dropping entirely.
I think the line would do better if they were to get behind something popular. They've been embracing the "everything to everyone" thing for a while now, but, honestly, I think some strong support for popular options would be encouraging.
I'm biased, but Dark*Matter is something that has a built-in fan base and is, I think, a good start. If they release some expansion products for it, it might revitalize things a little.
I'd like to see some adventures, as well. The adventures on the website were great, and I think Project Javelin was in the right direction, but something focused on an already released book would do wonders. Like some Dark*Matter adventures.
I'm biased, but Dark*Matter is something that has a built-in fan base and is, I think, a good start.
I've argued the same thing for some time now, and as I never played D*M or Alternity, I'm about as unbiased as they come.
The Wizzos made an unsubtle grab for crossover Dungeons and Dragons players, rather than attempting to reach both the existing Alternity and Dark*Matter fanbase and the gaming audience that is looking for something other than another D&D-like fantasy game. Modern cries out for a really cool setting, and from what I've read about D*M, it could be The One: magic, psionics, aliens, genefreaks, covert ops, all without the trainload of baggage that comes with Urban Arcana's "D&D with guns" approach.
__________________ On weird fantasy: "The Otus/Elmore rule: When adding something new to the campaign, try and imagine how Erol Otus would depict it. If you can, that's far enough...it's a good idea. If you can picture a Larry Elmore version...it's far too mundane and boring, excise immediately." - Kellri, K&K Alehouse
Other games that have lost support after going out of print.
It happens. Take a look at the once thriving online communities for 2300 A.D., the old World of Darkness (the new one has no where near the web presence), Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (slowly reviving, I am happy to say), and Warhammer Quest. You can find the sites, last updated, two, three, or even five years ago, like burned out cars.
The Auld Grump
__________________ Oh, I am a cook, and a captain bold, and the mate of the Nancy brig,
The midship mite,
And the Bo'sun tight,
And the crew of the captain's gig...
Other games that have lost support after going out of print.
It happens. Take a look at the once thriving online communities for 2300 A.D., the old World of Darkness (the new one has no where near the web presence), Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (slowly reviving, I am happy to say), and Warhammer Quest. You can find the sites, last updated, two, three, or even five years ago, like burned out cars.
The Auld Grump
One interesting difference is that those games didn't have a cadre of third party publishers who could continue to publish materials based on them.
Those publishers might all jump ship to Spycraft 2, but I figure only after they've seen sales from d20 Modern stuff decline to the point where the Spycraft 2 material has outpaced them.
Other games that have lost support after going out of print.
It happens. Take a look at the once thriving online communities for 2300 A.D., the old World of Darkness (the new one has no where near the web presence), Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (slowly reviving, I am happy to say), and Warhammer Quest. You can find the sites, last updated, two, three, or even five years ago, like burned out cars.
The Auld Grump
The big difference here is that publishers can continue to make money, produce derivative works, even produce core rulebooks to supplement the d20 Modern rule set once Wizards' core book is gone.
For my part, I know we at RPGObjects will continue to support the game as long as the fans continue to support.
What you're talking about are fan projects. There's a real, substantial difference when companies, employing and paying for people's time (both full and part time) are able to profit off something, as companies will be able to do for d20 Modern.
For my part, I don't know what will happen if Wizards drops it. It might increase our PDF sales since RPGNow will then be the ONLY outlet for new material.
Certainly the people who only buy "official" product will turn away to something else, but those people probably aren't my customers anyway.
Those publishers might all jump ship to Spycraft 2, but I figure only after they've seen sales from d20 Modern stuff decline to the point where the Spycraft 2 material has outpaced them.
I find this notion interesting at best.
The idea has been put forth a couple of times now that somehow Spycraft II is more viable than d20 Modern and will be even more so if Wizards drops the product line.
How does d20 Modern being dropped by Wizards (after many publications being printed) and the product line being sustained by 3rd party companies kill d20 Modern when Spycraft II has ALREADY been dropped by AEG (themselves a 3rd party company) for other 3rd party companies to support.
So what has already happened to Spycraft might happen to d20M in the future but d20M is doomed while Spycraft is the wave of the future?
Don't get me wrong, I think Spycraft II is a fine design and would be happy to write products for it. But the idea that d20 Modern will be killed by winding up in the boat Spycraft is now?
I say spin the d20M license off to Vigilance and let him run wild!
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
" If the DM has to make a lot of judgment calls, the game is more difficult to learn. However, it's my belief that it's also more satisfying." -Monte Cook
"Don't let rules replace good DMing skills"- Monte Cook
Americanarchy Storyhour updated 8 March, 2004 Editor:
Modern Backdrops, and a bunch more D20 Modern and one D20 Fantasy product. Technical info provided for Valherjar: The Chosen Slain
We'd be fighting 2nd tier Goa'Ulds, too... While we wouldn't have the glory of killing Amon Ra the ruler of a thousand worlds and terror of the System Lords, we WOULD get to fight his younger brother... Bubba Ray. Manager of the Ra-Mart, and terror of those who abuse the quarter fed riding Unas out front of the store.
Freelance Status - Now - Writing mechanics for Modern Backdrops II Next up - Editing YotZ project [X] Then - Writing project I hope will be picked up and purchased by everyone.
The big difference here is that publishers can continue to make money, produce derivative works, even produce core rulebooks to supplement the d20 Modern rule set once Wizards' core book is gone.
For my part, I know we at RPGObjects will continue to support the game as long as the fans continue to support.
What you're talking about are fan projects. There's a real, substantial difference when companies, employing and paying for people's time (both full and part time) are able to profit off something, as companies will be able to do for d20 Modern.
For my part, I don't know what will happen if Wizards drops it. It might increase our PDF sales since RPGNow will then be the ONLY outlet for new material.
Certainly the people who only buy "official" product will turn away to something else, but those people probably aren't my customers anyway.
Chuck
I have watched fan support disappear, and fan interest wane on so many games that I have my doubts for the long term survival of Modern if WotC pulls the plug. I really wouldn't mind being wrong.
Though come to think of it, does Mongoose still have their Pocket Modern? Being able to find the rules would likely help, even if WotC does pull the plug.
The Auld Grump, the good thing about being a pessimist - the surprises tend to be pleasant ones.
__________________ Oh, I am a cook, and a captain bold, and the mate of the Nancy brig,
The midship mite,
And the Bo'sun tight,
And the crew of the captain's gig...
The idea has been put forth a couple of times now that somehow Spycraft II is more viable than d20 Modern and will be even more so if Wizards drops the product line.
How does d20 Modern being dropped by Wizards (after many publications being printed) and the product line being sustained by 3rd party companies kill d20 Modern when Spycraft II has ALREADY been dropped by AEG (themselves a 3rd party company) for other 3rd party companies to support.
Sorry, I meant my original statement as a conditional -- that *if* d20 Modern based third party book sales dropped below Spycraft 2 based book sales, then d20 Modern might fully die.
But, as you say, that doesn't seem too likely given the way things are now, especially since the third party publishers have essentially built their own little mutaully supporting product lines.
My one concern would be if WotC let d20 Modern go out of print, then d20 Modern might not acquire any new blood. Though, WotC might easily figure that they've actually got the best of all worlds -- just keep reprinting the core book, which is always the book with the best sales, and let *all* the support fall to the third party folks.
Not that the current situation is terribly different from that anyway.
With "nearly all" the 3.5 catalog being PDFed to DTRPG and ALL the Alternity line PDFed at various vendors ...
I doubt WotC would be so stupid as just to let the products become utterly unavailable. If they drop the line entirely, they'll still PDF it and put it out for value price at online vendors.
With the d20 and OGL licenses as they are ... I'm available to hire. There'll be a book on shelves to go with all the 3rd party material out there.
But I think killing the line would be stupid. They just need to shore it up and put out a few good solid sellers.
But you do realize how snarky and/or obnoxious you sound right there, yes?
There's a line between pushing a game and being pushy.
Chuck
Well, there's the magic of the interweb for you. I had no intent of being "snarky," "pushy" or "obnoxious." The point of the whole living comment was that if d20M was canceled by WotC, some publishers - some - might want to make product for a line currently in print. That's it, no offense intended. I'll retire to my hole now
Americanarchy Storyhour updated 8 March, 2004 Editor:
Modern Backdrops, and a bunch more D20 Modern and one D20 Fantasy product. Technical info provided for Valherjar: The Chosen Slain
We'd be fighting 2nd tier Goa'Ulds, too... While we wouldn't have the glory of killing Amon Ra the ruler of a thousand worlds and terror of the System Lords, we WOULD get to fight his younger brother... Bubba Ray. Manager of the Ra-Mart, and terror of those who abuse the quarter fed riding Unas out front of the store.
Freelance Status - Now - Writing mechanics for Modern Backdrops II Next up - Editing YotZ project [X] Then - Writing project I hope will be picked up and purchased by everyone.
Why is everyone sounding (or anticipating) the death knell for d20 Modern? I can understand Aussiegamer's subtle jubilation ... ... but is everyone else that gravely concerned?
I'm sorry for those involved in the Project Javelin adventure path, even though it is not my cup of Earl Grey tea. I'm also sorry for the designers and artists for d20 Spectaculars, even though I'm not interested in buying this product immediately (maybe three months down the line, which means not in time to make the turn rate).
To be brutally honest, d20 Dark Matter may be the boost that d20 Modern line truly need. I know I'm getting this one.
__________________ Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...
My philosophy is "you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way." --Monte Cook
Why is everyone sounding (or anticipating) the death knell for d20 Modern? I can understand Aussiegamer's subtle jubilation ... ... but is everyone else that gravely concerned?
To those of us who don't have sales figures, it certainly seems that way.
Quote:
To be brutally honest, d20 Dark Matter may be the boost that d20 Modern line truly need. I know I'm getting this one.
I agree, but even this isn't 100% guaranteed. It's also going to be difficult for third party writers to use Dark Matter material.
To those of us who don't have sales figures, it certainly seems that way.
I agree, but even this isn't 100% guaranteed. It's also going to be difficult for third party writers to use Dark Matter material.
Ve haff veys ... ve haff veys ...
One hopes they'll decide to support this particular product with some additional material, though.
I, for one, liked the D20Future/D20Past concept ... perhaps not the execution at all times ... but it does allow for 2-day-notice genre games. "Let's play Ghost In The Machine!" ... and, having been in college and whatnot, I know that type of game is pretty common among the "hobbyist gamer". The rules didn't have to be GOOD ... they just needed to be THERE and easily accessible.
I do, however, think it is time for a solid run that would enable a popular "campaign".
My actual hope is that they choose to spin it off to another company rather than ditching it entirely, while I do not much love D20 Modern I don't hate it or its fans, and I do feel that it deserves a fairer deal than it appears WotC is giving it.
The rules didn't have to be GOOD ... they just needed to be THERE and easily accessible.
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