General RPG Rules DiscussionDiscuss the rules of any game except D&D or Pathfinder, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, d20 Modern, and the like.
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Listen, if I were going to rewrite the system entirely, I'd go and do a lot of things 4e has done, and pare stuff down a ton. Your AC would be 10 + (Dex and light armor) or (heavy armor) + enhancement bonus. There would be no deflection, dodge, luck, etc. bonuses to AC, though in combat you could gain a morale bonus, circumstance bonus, or power bonus that lasted for a little while.
Like I said in the other thread, I generally like the core mechanics of 4e, I just am near to loathing its visual and thematic aesthetics. On an almost perfect flip-side, I really don't see the need for all the different bonus types in 3e, but I totally love the Pathfinder aesthetic. I wish I had a few million dollars to buy the D&D brand and then sell it to Paizo.
But since I don't, I'm trying to compromise and make things as simple as possible while keeping existing 3e monsters and gadgets usable.
Oh, and Wulf, fatigued and exhausted need to be external modifiers, just like almost everything else, because of barbarian rage, waves of exhaustion, and similar effects. I think internals should only be modified due to changes to your character that will last days or more (curses, destroyed gear, and gaining or losing new abilities).
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel. Updated March 10, 2010.
Creator of the War of the Burning Sky campaign saga, by E.N. Publishing. Available now to EN World community supporters.
No, but it is helpful to say that Bull's Strength should have a long casting time, and last for hours. (4e, perhaps, would classify Bull's Strength as a utility spell, or a "Ritual.")
Bull's Strength in specific was changed from an hours-long duration to a single-fight duration because having it hours-long was too strong.
And you're proposing making it last all day and be immune to combat-time Dispel Magic?
Huh, -- N
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Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
The touched creature gets a +2 power bonus to melee attack and damage rolls, thrown damage rolls, and Strength-based checks. It takes no penalty from encumbrance up to its normal max load.
Then we'd also have:
Giant's Strength
Level: Clr 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Casting Time: Ritual
Duration: Long (which means until the affected person sleeps)
Range: Touch
(flavor)
The touched creature gets a +4 bonus to melee attack and damage rolls, thrown damage rolls, and Strength-based skill checks. It can wield weapons as if it were one size category larger, its max load is doubled, and it suffers no penalties for encumbrance up to its max load.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel. Updated March 10, 2010.
Creator of the War of the Burning Sky campaign saga, by E.N. Publishing. Available now to EN World community supporters.
So, from my point of view, I've never seen this as an issue.
Pathfinder ought to fix the dependence on magic items and nerf stick spellcasters.
If there are fewer stat modifiers, then to keep PCs in line with the power level of monsters, we'd want to give them inherent bonuses to saves and AC, I'd imagine. And if we do that, there's less need for magic items.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel. Updated March 10, 2010.
Creator of the War of the Burning Sky campaign saga, by E.N. Publishing. Available now to EN World community supporters.
If there are fewer stat modifiers, then to keep PCs in line with the power level of monsters, we'd want to give them inherent bonuses to saves and AC, I'd imagine. And if we do that, there's less need for magic items.
To do that, you need to actually have a progression for the bonuses a PC is supposed to have every level.
Furthermore, it doesn't deal with the fundamental problem that 3.x changed the underlying mechanics of the utility/non-combat spells from 1e/2e.
I repeat again, Redgar must have slept with someone's sister at WOTC or Mialee must be "fantastic" n bed.
Bull's Strength in specific was changed from an hours-long duration to a single-fight duration because having it hours-long was too strong.
Cite?
I'll happily counter any cite for "too strong" with "Not really..." and I'll have Monte Cook in my corner.
Quote:
And you're proposing making it last all day and be immune to combat-time Dispel Magic?
I don't recall saying "all day" but for the sake of simplicity, I'll just answer, "Yep."
PCs running rough-shod over your campaign with their gauntlets of ogre power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerWickett
Oh, and Wulf, fatigued and exhausted need to be external modifiers, just like almost everything else, because of barbarian rage,
You've actually had the fatigue effect of barbarian rage come into play?
Quote:
waves of exhaustion,
Why do the rules have to structure themselves around waves of exhaustion, but not ray of enfeeblement?
Well, YMMV. One way or another, something is getting rewritten. You can either rewrite the effects of fatigue, or you rewrite the effects of waves of exhaustion.
I'd rather keep the distinction between an actual, long-term physical condition (fatigued, exhausted) and preserve those game functions, and rewrite touch of fatigue and waves of exhaustion so that they provide temporary debuffs.
Quote:
I think internals should only be modified due to changes to your character that will last days or more (curses, destroyed gear, and gaining or losing new abilities).
That's a lot longer than I personally see as necessary. I just don't want to have to recalculate mid-combat. Full stop.
But I can definitely see an argument for drawing a bright line across permanent effects.
Essentially, that means drawing a line between spells and magic items.
Bull's Strength in specific was changed from an hours-long duration to a single-fight duration because having it hours-long was too strong.
And you're proposing making it last all day and be immune to combat-time Dispel Magic?
Huh, -- N
My preference would be to get rid of all buffs, with perhaps an exception for buffs that have an inherent disadvantage built in - I'd rather see a buff that gives you a Rage effect than a simple Bulls Strength.
__________________ "I hurt Firewing." is not something a huge number of people can say. "He dropped a parking garage on me," on the other hand, a lot of people can say. -Kazan, my Champions GM.
I'll happily counter any cite for "too strong" with "Not really..." and I'll have Monte Cook in my corner.
Nope, not going to dig through the CharOp archives to find the 3.0e stuff. If you never noticed that the most desirable items in the game could be replaced with 2nd level spells (except for the fact that those spells were vulnerable to dispel), there's probably not much I can do to convince you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulf Ratbane
PCs running rough-shod over your campaign with their gauntlets of ogre power?
Is this how we attempt personal digs on the OGL board?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulf Ratbane
But I can definitely see an argument for drawing a bright line across permanent effects.
Essentially, that means drawing a line between spells and magic items.
There's hope. Maybe you did notice.
Cheers, -- N
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
Is this how we attempt personal digs on the OGL board?
That's not a dig, it's just Wulf.
Seriously though, the point Wulf was trying to make is that there isn't much difference between a +4 stat item and Bull's Strength that last "a day".
Back to Ryan's point, I like the concept of reducing the number of bonus "buckets" - right now there are too many sources of modifiers.
I shudder at the thought of what would be involved to make all the necessary changes though. *shudder*
It would probably be easier to go the Pathfinder route: keep all the modifier types exactly the way they are but reduce the number you can have active at any one time. Currently, the Pathfinder system seems a bit arbitrary so I think some work still needs to be done on classifying them.
Perhaps the magic item slot list could be modified or expanded to include temporary buffs. Or classify buffs as "stat", "offensive", "defensive", "physical", "mental", etc and limit the number of each type a character can have at any one time.
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Seriously though, the point Wulf was trying to make is that there isn't much difference between a +4 stat item and Bull's Strength that last "a day".
That's my point. Those items are the foundation of the "big six". Allowing spells to do what those items do (in a way that can't be dispelled) is ... well, it's not my idea of good design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassJaw
Back to Ryan's point, I like the concept of reducing the number of bonus "buckets" - right now there are too many sources of modifiers.
I shudder at the thought of what would be involved to make all the necessary changes though.
Yeah. But I don't think stacking can be eliminated unless you also do away with stat buffs entirely. A Barbarian who can't benefit from Bull's Strength is going to be outclassed by a Fighter who can... and anyone being outclassed by a Fighter is just sad. :\
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassJaw
It would probably be easier to go the Pathfinder route: keep all the modifier types exactly the way they are but reduce the number you can have active at any one time. Currently, the Pathfinder system seems a bit arbitrary so I think some work still needs to be done on classifying them.
I will be impressed if they can pull this off without a lot of changes.
Cheers, -- N
__________________
Brevity is the soul of wit, so trim your sig or look dumb.
Nope, not going to dig through the CharOp archives to find the 3.0e stuff. If you never noticed that the most desirable items in the game could be replaced with 2nd level spells (except for the fact that those spells were vulnerable to dispel), there's probably not much I can do to convince you.
I have to say, I'm not a big fan of ability buffs. I'd be OK if they jumped to 4th or 5th level spells, or went away altogether. As it is, the party somewhere between 3rd and 5th level the party is suddenly flirting with Strs and Dexs between 22 and 24. I think I prefer the 1st/2nd edition approach (and this be about the only time you hear that!) where ability scores were very hard to affect magically.
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