d20 Modern Does anyone like class skills?

[Vigilance]

So I'm seriously thinking about getting rid of class skills in Modern20.

We already made no class skills an optional rule in Modern Supplement #1 and as I work on Modern20 Revised, a free update/expansion to Modern20 core, I am seriously considering getting rid of them altogether.

Is there any reason I shouldn't?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Vigilance

So I'm seriously thinking about getting rid of class skills in Modern20.

We already made no class skills an optional rule in Modern Supplement #1 and as I work on Modern20 Revised, a free update/expansion to Modern20 core, I am seriously considering getting rid of them altogether.

Is there any reason I shouldn't?

I like class skills. I just don't like cross-class skills.

I think it is appropriate for a class-based game to link certain skills with character class, and give incentive or advantages in buying them. But i think the default cross-class rules of the d20 System as found in D&D or d20 Modern are too harsh. Cross-Class Skills are just to expensive and too often worthless.

There are two approaches I liked:
I think the Pathfinder "fix" is pretty neat - basically, if you take a skill as a class skill, you get a +3 bonus to it. (But no more 4 x skill points at 1st level). The cost for the skills are always the same.

The Iron Heroes fix is also very good - all skills are linked to skill groups, and if a class grants you a skill group, you just need to take one rank in that group to get one rank in every skill of that group.

[damiller]

I don't use class skills with this idea in mind: even the most hardened Tank may very well spent some time studying Art.

I like having the option to have archetypal type characters that have twists to them, without having to worry about IF they can do it, or do it well.

On the mechanics side, I don't think that how to do cross class skills is well explained within the Core Modern20. If that is cleaned up and explained concisely I wouldn't use it, but it would be good for the rules themselves.

Thats partly because I believe Modern20 has relied on someone knowing d20 rules instead of assuming no prior knowledge of d20. It is frustrating as a purchaser to not have all the rules adequately explained within the book, but have to purchase or look elsewhere to obtain that information. (yes I am looking at spells, while I don't mind that I have to use the SRD to get spells, I wish that were specifically told, so I wouldn't have to guess where to get spells.)

With all that criticism however I would note that Modern20 is my favorite version of d20 so far, and I actually enjoy making full characters using the rules.

Which from me is a compliment.

d

[Vigilance]

Originally Posted by damiller

I don't use class skills with this idea in mind: even the most hardened Tank may very well spent some time studying Art.

I like having the option to have archetypal type characters that have twists to them, without having to worry about IF they can do it, or do it well.

Yeah, I felt like the classes should have definition, but I think the class feat lists do that well enough.

Thats partly because I believe Modern20 has relied on someone knowing d20 rules instead of assuming no prior knowledge of d20.

Yeah, Modern20 assumes at least a passing familiarity with d20 rules. One reason I didnt specify a location for spells is that I don't care: SRD, MSRD, Arcana Evolved, anyplace with levelled spells works.

Like most things in Modern20, that was a compromise. If you want a little magic in a campaign the book gives you some pointers. Since my assumption is that most people won't, I didn't want to devote a lot of space to it.

With all that criticism however I would note that Modern20 is my favorite version of d20 so far, and I actually enjoy making full characters using the rules.

Which from me is a compliment.

d

Thanks!

Id also like to take this opportunity to once again let folks know that after GenCon there will be even more Modern20 to love, as we're expanding and revising the game, by about 25%.

And despite the scope and size of the revision, it will be free to folks who already have the game.

[Brutorz Bill]

For the record, put me down for NOT being a fan of class skills. My players like having more options and as you stated earlier I think you can use Feats to properly seperate the various classes.
Thanks!

[Sunsword]

No class/cross-class skills is my preference as well. I like the option presented in the Companion & use it in my Supers20 games.

Is there any possibility for a SWSE style Skill system?
Or even SWSE/4E style Defenses(as opposed to Saves)?

[Vigilance]

Originally Posted by Sunsword

No class/cross-class skills is my preference as well. I like the option presented in the Companion & use it in my Supers20 games.

Yeah, I think not having class skills is the way we're going to go.

Is there any possibility for a SWSE style Skill system?
Or even SWSE/4E style Defenses(as opposed to Saves)?

I think both these systems are closed content, so we couldn't use them.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Vigilance

I think both these systems are closed content, so we couldn't use them.

You just have to avoid "breaking" copyright then, which is mostly a wording issue. It's not like just because someone invented the term "blood points" in a game, it can't be used in others. It sure would be easier if it was open, though.

Static Defenses might actually be part Unearthed Arcana, and I think that's open.

[Psion]

I like/prefer class skills. I don't like how hard you get dinged for cross class skills, but would prefer to see something like grim tales (build your own list), spycraft (numerous options exist to add to your list), or even alternity/pathfinder (class skill is merely a bonus). As is stands in D20 modern (and most d20 variants), picking cross class skills is a bit too much of a punishment.

To me, dissolving the skill-class linkage goes too far in making the feel and focus of the class too diffuse, injures niche protection too much, and makes "jack of all trades" characters too desirable.

[Aus_Snow]

I don't actually mind either way, but I agree that cross-class skills in standard d20 are a bit on the expensive side. Well, pretty much not worth the bother, most of the time.

Pathfinder's way of handling it looks good, but I haven't tried that just yet. Give it a week or so, and I'll have a better idea of how much I like/dislike it.

Anyway though, for class-based systems, some kind of class skill setup makes sense, to me.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Put me down in the "I like class skills but don't like cross-class skills" category.

It makes sense to me that a particular class might do a better job than another one at teaching someone a particular skill...but it doesn't follow that it also makes someone worse at learning a skill not related to the base skill-set of the class.

[drothgery]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Static Defenses might actually be part Unearthed Arcana, and I think that's open.

It's in the 'players roll all dice' variant.

SWSE/4e-style skills is a close cousin to the 'maximum ranks' skill variant with a consolidated skill list.

[Vigilance]

I think part of the problem here, from my perspective, is the kind of classes Modern20 has, which aren't archetypes so much as the dreaded party roles.

Im a big fan of class skills normally, because of the games I've done have had actual archetypes. Id never want to get rid of class skills in Legends of the Samurai, for example.

But in Modern20, I kept running into areas where I felt more flexibility was needed. Its classes are closer to True 20 classes than standard d20 classes.

[Nyeshet]

I like the idea of class skills, but I do not like how cross-class skills are implemented. What I would prefer to see is something akin to the following:

A feat that makes a skill a class skill for all classes the PC has or will gain in the future - a sort of 'signature skill' trait. Perhaps this could replace 'skill focus', in that they gain the skill as a class skill for all classes while also gaining a +2 benefit.

Another idea is to broaden class skills a bit; allow a class gained to remain a class skill hence forth:

A feat that allows a class skill from one class to be treated as class skills in another class - and vice versa. Thus a cleric / fighter would treat all class skills from both classes as class skills when they increased a level. After all, if they are multi-classing they likely are using class skills from both classes.

The former may seem like too little (only one skill is affected), while the latter may seem as too much.

Another idea I've thought on is allowing a cross-class skill to become a class skill once 4 skill pts have been put into it (granting it +2 skill ranks, the same bonus given by some feats to skills). The four points put into it show that the PC is taking the skill seriously, putting effort and skill points into it, even for only half price.

Another idea, perhaps to be used in tandem with the prior, is to remove the skill cap on cross-class skills. Since the cost is already twice that of normal skills, one can put as many points into it as they like - to the same limit as class skills (level in Pathfinder, level +3 in 3.5e). After putting in enough points for 2, 3 or perhaps 4 skill ranks, the class becomes a class skill.



It really depends on how important skills are in your campaign as to which method is better for you. If they are not too important, then perhaps allowing a class skill gained to count as a class skill henceforth (regardless from which class future levels are taken) will work. If they are too important to treat so lightly, then perhaps just removing the cap of half class skill ranks allowable is enough - perhaps even granting class level status if Skill Focus or 4+ (or 6+, or even 8+) skill points are placed into the cross-class skill.

[Armadillo]

Originally Posted by Nyeshet

A feat that makes a skill a class skill for all classes the PC has or will gain in the future - a sort of 'signature skill' trait. Perhaps this could replace 'skill focus', in that they gain the skill as a class skill for all classes while also gaining a +2 benefit.

I've always treated the feats with the +2 skill benefit as also making those skills class skills.

I like the idea of giving characters a +2 benefit in all class skills and getting rid of cross-class skills. This would also lessen the difficulty of having to pick certain core classes for the skills required to qualify for an advanced class.

[Nyeshet]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

I've always treated the feats with the +2 skill benefit as also making those skills class skills.

I've not heard of this before, but I know a lot of people that do it with the Skill Focus feat - the PC gains the bonus and the skill is a permanent class skill for the PC.

Originally Posted by Armadillo

I like the idea of giving characters a +2 benefit in all class skills and getting rid of cross-class skills. This would also lessen the difficulty of having to pick certain core classes for the skills required to qualify for an advanced class.

You know, you could get the same effect by removing the cost but keeping the cap, right?

So, at all levels all skill ranks only cost 1 skill point. However, cross-class skills are capped at half level (or half level +1), while class skills are limited to level +2 (or +3, or even just level - as Pathfinder does it).

So putting a few points in a skill is easy no matter the class, but really pushing up the skill ranks in a skill requires it be a class skill.

This is yet another possible way of deal with cross-class skills.

[The Black Kestrel]

I'm with Mustrum Ridcully on this one. I'm a fan of class skill, but not cross class skills. I think that class skills help a player focus on the skills that are relevant to their class. This ensures that a player's character can actually perform their classes role. This is even more important in d20 Modern where skills come into play more often that D&D (well in my games anyway).

[Reveille]

Originally Posted by The Black Kestrel

I'm with Mustrum Ridcully on this one. I'm a fan of class skill, but not cross class skills. I think that class skills help a player focus on the skills that are relevant to their class. This ensures that a player's character can actually perform their classes role. This is even more important in d20 Modern where skills come into play more often that D&D (well in my games anyway).

QFT. Mine too.

[Malacoda]

Originally Posted by drothgery

It's in the 'players roll all dice' variant.

SWSE/4e-style skills is a close cousin to the 'maximum ranks' skill variant with a consolidated skill list.

Both these concepts are also covered in The Mastermind Manual for Mutants & Masterminds, which is primarily open content (and uses material from Unearthed Arcana).

When it comes to general mechanics, a lot of 4e can be "emulated" via 3e-era open content such as the two books mentioned, plus a bevy of others.

Also, put me down as someone who doesn't like class skills in a general modern game. I think a small listing of "signature skills" that a given class can get bonues on is a better idea.

[Armadillo]

Originally Posted by Nyeshet

You know, you could get the same effect by removing the cost but keeping the cap, right?

So, at all levels all skill ranks only cost 1 skill point. However, cross-class skills are capped at half level (or half level +1), while class skills are limited to level +2 (or +3, or even just level - as Pathfinder does it).

This is much easier and elegant to implement.