3E+4E rules campaign possible?

[Cringer_luvr]

Has anyone mixed systems yet? taken ideas from the 4E rules and layerd them onto the 3E rules set? maybe even tossed some pathfinder in the mix? I was considering away to mix all 3 systems...IE: take the best bits of all 3 and see what can be made, anyone else got ideas on this how to do this or have already done this? I want to see what you have/come up with please thanks.

[Gansk]

I think it can be done, I am going to take a shot at it.

My plan is to include the following from 4e:
Racial Feats
Healing Surges
Rituals
Minor Actions (allow some 3e move actions to be combined with actual movement)

The rest stays 3e, Pathfinder, BOXM, or BOXM2.

[ShinHakkaider]

Mine are HERE.

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

It can be done.

We're using healing surges. However, the use of healing surges has promted us to switch over to a homebrewed variant of Vitality and Wound Points (similar to what's in Unearthed Arcana). Healing surges replenish vitality, but do nothing for wounds. Magical healing, though, relies on healing surges, too. A character must have a healing surge in order to have wounds healed through magical means. No healing surge, and magic can only heal vitality points.

I haven't tried rituals, yet. But, it's on the list. Was on the list even before 4E came out (incantations, I think it was called).

We've imported stuff piecemeal from Pathfinder & the Books of Experimental Might, too. And, we use Arcana Evolved side-by-side with the regular 3.5 classes. However, we don't use any prestige classes (we use prestige feats, instead). And, when multiclassing; BAB, Hit Dice, and saves don't stack. The character simply gets the best total of each class (similar to gestalt, but advancement is only one class at a time).

I want to try adding 4E's marks to 3.X, but I haven't decided how, yet. I'll probably do it when I get around to re-writing the Marshal and/or writing up a 3.x Warlord. Though, I'm not convince that a Warlord needs to be a separate class from the fighter in 3.x. Warlordish feats may be the route that I go (but, maybe not).

We, also, did away with default iterative attacks for all classes other than the Monk and Oathsworn. Other classes may purchase extra attacks through feats. However, all classes get a base damage & defense bonus (both of which vary by class).

But, to answer your question, I think there's a lot in 4E that can be used in a 3.x game. For example, my monsters have picked up a few 4E abilities. Kobolds, for example, are Shifty (able to take two 5' steps per round, instead of one).

[Cringer_luvr]

Originally Posted by ShinHakkaider

Mine are HERE.

Shin, all I can say is WOW Awesome work...I look forward to the Pdf Version and any updates yuo do.....still want to see other folks work as well....again thanks.

[Greg K]

My list of what I'd like to see:
1. Non-biological racial abilities turned into feats

2. More starting hit points

3. Action Points and Healing Surges, but I prefer Mutants and Masterminds hero point approach. Hero points allow a reroll and if the die roll is 10 or less, you add ten to the roll. In addition to rerolling, action points can be used for a variety of other effects including healing surges, duplicating a feat, taking an extra action, etc.

4. Unified Saving throw: And, to prevent multiclass abuse of stacking class bonuses, you only receive a saving throw bonus from your initial class. Otherwise take feats like Iron Will and Lightining Reflexes.

5. Armor and Weapon Proficiency: The armor and weapon proficiencies granted by class are only granted to first level characters. After first level, a character can only acquire proficiency in armor or weapons via feats (including class bonus feats if the armor and weapon proficiencies are on the list of bonus feats).

Edit:
6. No XP cost to create items: Replace Item creation with Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games)
7. No XP costs to cast certain spells: Use Pathfinder's method
8. No Level Drain
9. Passive Perception and opposed skills: DC 10+opponent's skill rank+ bonuses
10. Incantions (UA): Thanks to Aus Snow for reminding me
11. Complex Skill Checks (UA): Thanks to Aus Snow for reminding me
12. Weapon Groups (UA): Thanks to Aus Snow for reminding me
13. Fighter: To make them more interesting
a) use TOB: B09S all fighters to acquire some of the maneuvers as per the rules presented therein
b) use the Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc) if you don't like per encounter and don't mind taking a moment to build maneuvers on the fly. Just be sure to download the cheat sheat and additonal sample maneuvers from the website
14. Retraining (DMG 2)
15. Monster/NPC design
a) Don't worry about accounting for every feat or skill point a monster/NPC has unless you are writing a published adventure or they are a cohort/ally. Just give them what think they need.; or
b) Use Wulf's system for Pathfinder that he posted her on ENWorld.
16. Swarm and Mob templates
17. Spells: to be added later

[Aus_Snow]

Some slightly 4th-esque things I experimented with, long before 4e itself came out. . . (note however that I had a lot of other house rules that were totally *un*-'4th-like')

* 'Minion' template: minimum HP, a couple of other things
* 'Elite' template: maximum HP, a couple of other things
* More starting HP: Con score, not Con mod, at 1st level
* 'Rituals': Incantations, house ruled to suit
* More feats: even more than 4e, mind you (one per level. . . nearly)
* No gnomes, no matter the setting
* Skill challenges: complex skill checks, a few other things - remarkably similar, all in all
* Flight, teleportation, most divination, resurrection, etc. all less casual, accessible
* (More or less) points 3, 4 and 5 on Greg K's list: M&M Hero Points, slightly modified and relabelled; not *exactly* unified saves, but a hell of a lot less out of whack and 'bumpy'; and yeah, that (other than using weapon groups on top of that). . . respectively

Going through my house rules now. . . to see if anything else turns up that even whispers '4e' in the slightest. . .

[Aus_Snow]

duped.

[El Mahdi]

I'm not just using 4E but many, many sources. So, here goes:

Basic frame is 3.5E
- use point build system from 4E for character creation
- use adapted E6 principal but go to 10th level. Afterwards only gain feats, powers, etc., no automatic bonuses to hit points, attack and defense bonuses, saving throws, abilities, etc., although may take feats to boost these numbers.
- increased hit points at first level
- class skills are front loaded - in other words - any skill a class would get, at any level, is provided at first level - however, all modifiers, damage, etc., for these abilities start small and get better as you level up (level dependent progression) - but all classes are able to do everything a class is supposed to do from 1st level on.
- Revamped feats, eliminating some (some Meta-magic feats, etc.) and adding or creating others
- Adapted SAGA skill system
- adapted defensive progression from Unearthed Arcana
- Can use Dexterity or Strength bonuses for attacks and damage - Spellcasters can use Intelligence or Wisdom for spell attacks and damage
- Armor Class change. Toyed with the idea of using a smaller AC bonus for armor and adding Damage Reduction, but it ended up being to complicated - players would forget to subtract their DR, one more thing to bookeep, etc. - instead used this: Armor adds hit points to your total Hit Points when worn equal to a percentage of total hit points (mathematically the same as using DR just already added in to hit points)- redid the AC chart for armors eliminating "Max Dex Bonus" (Max Dex never made sense - the only players that really get penalized are those with high dexterity scores) - essentially the new chart already takes into account the armor bonus and a dexterity penalty, pre-added together for a flat score, which is added to Defense Bonus - unlike most bonus hit points, these are not used first but are added together for one score - if you take your armor off, your hit points are simply reduced by the percentage bonus of your armor. (adapted from Unearthed Arcana)
- Redisigned all spells to be At Will or Ritual - In other words, No Vancian Magic. Any spells that have a variable (damage, duration, range, etc.) are based an characters caster level, not spell level - essentially anything that had a duration longer than a Standard Action became a Ritual - All others are at will (personal house rules and 4E)
- Modified attack progression for spellcasters essentially equal to a fighters attack bonus for attacks with spells
- Eliminated save-or-die effects and use 50/50 mechanic for persistant effects from 4E
- No Multiclassing - use Multi-Class or "Class Training" Feats like 4E
- Adapted 4E Death and Dying concept (death at -10 or -1/4 total hit points - whichever is larger) and used the same D20 rolling mechanic 4E does.
- Use condition track system from SAGA.
- Use Action Points (per game session instead of per encounter) and Second Wind mechanic from 4E - however, do not use Healing Surges.
- Modified Grapple: Grapple is just a standard attack accomplished with the following guidelines: may attack with one or two hands – must have both hands free to “control” target – once grapple is engaged, AoO are no longer in play for either combatant – both parties can continue to attack in a grapple – the character that engages the grapple and achieves control has combat advantage against the opponent for any further attacks and checks – the opponent may make a standard attack roll on their turn to attempt to break the grapple, however this does not inflict damage (but may just make a standard attack for the purpose of inflicting damage but not necessarily escaping) – the opponent may also attempt to reverse the grapple and put the original grappler under their control, this is done with an attack (as above) and the opponent must make a strength or dexterity check (DC = 10 + attackers attack bonus + damage inflicted) – any successful attacks by either party have a 50% chance of being a critical hit.
- Combat Advantage provides a +5 bonus (wanted to give it some teeth) (adapted from 4E)

- Attacks of Opportunity – cannot make AoO if engaged in melee. Can only make attack if un-engaged and not surprised (or otherwise affected). Moving through an area of melee combat is considered rough terrain and slows your movement by ½. The area of melee combat is defined as the squares occupied by combatants engaged in melee and any adjacent 5ft. squares to the combatants. You may attempt to run through these areas at full speed, without regard for personal safety, but doing so requires a Dex check at DC=20. Failure results in 50/50 chance of tripping and falling prone, or crashing into a combatant, causing you to becoming engaged yourself.

- Use Pathfinder Beta mechanic for tracking subdual damage

- Non-spellcasting classes gain powers (ala 4E), however, characters do not gain as many as 4E, and all powers are per encounter (they are special maneuvers that must be set up - once they are used the bad guys are aware of it) - Standard attacks are still the primary form of attack, but now non-spellcasters have some high damage tricks up their sleeves

- Embracing "design by exception" model for monsters and NPC's and using the hell out of the Minion concept

- Loosely using Skill Challenge concept

- all players pre-roll 20 initiatives at beginning of game session and track on Excell - provides randomness for each round, and since players don't know when their turn is, they have to pay attention - also speeds up combat

- monsters and npc's have pre-set defensive scores (no rolling) in order to speed up combat

- monsters have preset save results in order to speed up combat (less rolling)

- use a critical hit / fumble chart for specific results - crits cause mulitplied damage as listed per weapon but can cause other results (broken bones, loss of limbs, etc.) and cause an immediate one step drop (minimum) on the condition track

- use a chess-timer or egg timer for turns to keep players moving

- Always used "Rule 0" so didn't have to add it

I have most of this written down and worked out to a rough, but useable, form for my own games. However I'm still working on polishing it up and putting it into a pdf.

Essentially I'm using a lot of the "concepts" that SAGA and 4E previews talked about for the new system, I'm just not necessarily using the same mechanics or the mechanics in the same way. This is what, IMO, 4E should have been.

[Gansk]

Originally Posted by El Mahdi

Use Pathfinder Beta mechanic for tracking subdual damage

I'm not sure what you referring to on this one. I don't see any changes to nonlethal damage in Pathfinder Beta.

[El Mahdi]

Originally Posted by Gansk

I'm not sure what you referring to on this one. I don't see any changes to nonlethal damage in Pathfinder Beta.

Sorry. Not so much a mechanic as a better way of tracking it that I just never saw in the 3.5 PHB.

[Cringer_luvr]

Lets see some new Ideas gang.....I Know there out there.

[Voadam]

I'm thinking of using the 4e DMG monster advancement formulas as quickplates for 3e monsters. I'm considering adapting the 4e templates as well. I like the idea of mechanically straight forward advancement and template application.

I like monster roles such as brutes and soldiers and artillery.

I like monsters having just a few themed powers

I think healing surges are ripe for stealing and applying to 3e.

I like passive perception checks.

I like the pathfinder/4e skill consolidation trend.

I like bloodied as a condition triggering effects.

I like the idea of first level characters having more hp as used in 4e/PF/BoXM.

I heard that charging does not need to be a straight line and just gives a +1 on attacks with no AC penalty. Sounds better.

I heard good things about the diagonals equal 1 move when used in play at the table.

For playstyle preferences I like encounter based powers more than daily powers.